Story Matters Podcast
In the Story Matters Podcast, Hosts Ryan and Emily Baker discuss life at the intersection of Theology and Psychology helping listeners to better grasp how their life stories have shaped them.
Story Matters Podcast
53. You are in a Bind!
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Burnout you can’t explain, people pleasing you can’t stop, co-existing with anxiety, resentment that keeps leaking into your closest relationships, or habits that numb you just enough to get through the week. We start Season Five by naming a common root under all of it: the binds that exist in your life that you have not fully named.
We talk about how our “non-negotiables” in decision-making moments are actually unexamined survival strategies. Story work becomes very practical as we trace our reasoning to our hatred of uncertainty and the patterns we adopted in order to feel sure. Then we introduce the shift that changes everything: moving from bind to paradox. A bind says you have no good options. A paradox says both sides may hold truth, and wisdom is required.
We also anchor this in Scripture, including the famously uncomfortable tension in Proverbs 26 about whether to answer a fool, and we connect it to real moments like conflict, online arguments, and choosing when to speak or stay quiet. Along the way, we frame this as an invitation into agency and humanness - yet not independence as we need the Holy Spirit’s guidance to live wisely inside complexity.
If you care about Christian healing, emotional health, and the practical overlap of theology and psychology, this conversation sets the foundation for the whole season.
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Season Five And Why It Matters
SPEAKER_00Hey, we're back. It has been a hot minute. Literally, we took a long summer break from recording. It was a restful season, but we faced some significant challenges with an extended family ministry and life. I tell you this as an introduction to season five because we are really excited to share with you some things that have become more clear to us as we navigate various challenges in life, and we know you do too. We have already experienced these topics to be practical for every stage of life. We live in a college town and spend a lot of time with young adults, and many of our clients are in their 50s, 60s, and even 70s. So in season five, we are unpacking the underlying benefits of story work that play out in our everyday lives and our everyday situations.
SPEAKER_01Welcome to the Story Matters Podcast. I'm Ryan Baker.
SPEAKER_00And I'm Emily Baker.
SPEAKER_01We believe people grow and heal through understanding how our stories are rooted in God's redemptive story.
SPEAKER_00We hope our conversations encourage you to engage your story and the world around you with a new lens.
SPEAKER_01We're glad you're here.
Symptoms That Signal A Hidden Bind
SPEAKER_01Things that are not going the way you want. Maybe you're stuck, maybe you've named these things, maybe you haven't, but you feel symptoms, whether they be emotional, physical, anger, resentment, sleeplessness, or headaches, or relational ones like fighting or withdrawing from people you love or compulsive scrolling. And what we want to talk about really this entire series is one of the primary causes of these symptoms is that we carry around in our bodies binds that we really have never named. We just coexist with. And we've talked about binds in earlier seasons. But in this discussion, we're going to talk about a bind, but more importantly, how that should shift towards something, Emily, you've been studying and writing about, and that's the word paradox. We're meant to live in a paradox where often we insist on living with binds. Until you've named your bind and seeing it as a paradox, you will have these symptoms continue. But when you do name it and move toward paradox, there is real freedom.
SPEAKER_00That's good. Yeah, we live, I think, in constant binds. We just don't call it that. Like just this week, I had four different people ask me, Hey, have you done a podcast episode on codependency or anger with God? Or how to navigate a complicated mother-daughter relationship? Or is it selfish to advocate for myself? These questions, these topics are actually binds. We just don't say, I'm in a bind. And these questions, it's amazing, came from anywhere from a 20-year-old to a 65-year-old. So we're hoping to unpack today that these are actually binds, and we want to talk about how to get freedom from being bound, which is ironically, that is the word. I'm in a bind, you know, like I don't know what to do. But Ryan, you said symptoms. I want to go back to that for a second.
Certainty Seeking And Why It Hurts
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think as human beings, we do not like uncertainty. We say that a lot in this podcast. Many pathologies find their root in the hatred and avoidance of uncertainty.
SPEAKER_00Actually, I want you to name some. Like when I hear you say that, I'm like, wait, what?
SPEAKER_01CD is classically, it's people might say, Oh, you want control, that's fine. But a more modern understanding accurately is you want certainty. I want to know for certain, which we can't. And so part of the treatment is learning to live with uncertainty. I can't know for sure there's not a germ on that doorknob that will kill me. So I need to learn to live with that uncertainty. So you asked about the symptoms. The premise of our conversation is that many areas of our lives are not black and white. They have gray. In fact, wisdom is the learn is the art of navigating the gray. And a paradox is when you can see, and we're going to talk more about this, two options. And they should feel possible, right? But we don't like that. That's too open. That's too big. We want certainty. And so what we do is we move right past the bind, which was where we're not sure, and we sort of answer it, if you will. We sort of ignore it, or what we might want to use the phrase pre-bind, you know, the idea that we're not even going to name that. We're not going to even act like there's two options. Because the concept of a bind is that you feel pressure. It's pressurizing you. So, for example, if there's, let's say there's a symptom that you feel completely burned out. I'm just burned out from my work. And someone says to you, Well, have you considered talking to your boss or making it? Oh, no, no, no, no. No, I would never do that. Why? Because, you know, and as you explore this bind, you might realize, because I don't ever say no to anyone. I want to be, I've worked really hard to be the yes man, to be the hero, to be the person that shows up. Okay. So, in other words, you're taking one side of a paradox. What's the paradox? You're supposed to be a good employee or a good worker as a human being, a good we work. And yet you're supposed to also, the other side of that is be a good husband, father, neighbor, churchman, etc. So, how do I hold those? And that's kind of a paradox. I don't obviously just do one without the other. I have to kind of navigate. And so if I have never named that because of certain loyalty structures, certain patterns from childhood, and I've gravitated toward the worker side, I might get burned out. If I gravitated toward the good husband side, I might be constantly complaining that I don't have any money. And so the symptoms can come by not naming these things. And what makes them so bad is we actually can feel like we don't have a choice.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we come up against that a lot when we hear people's frustrations or the ways they feel stuck. And so, as like the fresh eyes seeing their story, you know, I'll ask questions. I know you do this too. Like, well, okay, so is this an option? Like, have you ever talked to this person or can you quit your job? I mean, do we have options on the table? And so often I come up against non-negotiables. Like, oh, that that I can't do that, you know. But then of course, there's plenty of people I work with that will explore and then actually go have the conversation and have amazing freedom. Like I advocated for myself and look, I this happened. They needed just that nudge.
People Pleasing And Other Escape Hatches
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, possible symptoms of not naming our binds and just living them out would be emotional ones like anger, resentment, anxiety, or numbness, or exhaustion, or sleeplessness.
SPEAKER_00Migraines.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Relational ones like fighting or people pleasing or defensiveness or controlling or behavioral ones, like I'm overworking or drinking or pornography, or shopping, or eating.
SPEAKER_00These are all like the addictions to to escape from not naming the bind.
SPEAKER_01Right. These are all things that we don't know where they're coming from, is our point in your point about a lot of times clients don't realize there's a bind. And we're getting to the word paradox. And as we discuss paradox, when it's just theory, it's kind of whimsical. Oh, that's interesting. It's when there's an actual stimulus or an impulse that you're like, oh my gosh, that's the bind. It forces us to choose. And what we really have been talking about thus far are what we might call the pre-bind, where by not naming there's a choice, we are living out our story, our limbic story. And it's just happening. This is the role I played growing up. This is the role I feel. This is the way I am in my marriage. This is the way I am in this world. And not just unexamined, but even like vehemently protected will lead to these symptoms that we've just named.
SPEAKER_00People pleasing is a big one because I don't want to hurt them or I don't want to be unliked. And so therefore I'm stuck in this position. So I think the unnamed bind becomes the non-negotiables that keep us stuck. And so you read that list of symptoms. When you got to the addictions, I see that in people that are just not willing to name that they are in a bind. And if you try to press in, sometimes it's like, what's the big deal? But then, well, the big deal is that you're drinking way too much to drown yourself in not thinking about this. But if you could lean into it, it actually could probably free you.
SPEAKER_01People pleasing. In some ways, that's really not a symptom initially. That's that's a proposed option, right? Like this, what is this people pleaser? Often it's like I'm saying yes to so many people that I'm lying to others. I'm saying I'll show up and I don't show up. I'm saying I'll get that done, I don't get it done. I'm saying I agree with you and I really disagree. So these are symptoms, right? I'm losing friendships, or I feel myself sort of disappearing. I don't even exist, I don't have a self. And then you go a little bit more work and it's like, you know what? I found out I'm a people pleaser. And often in counseling, these things get bantied about enough that people just select them. Oh, I know I'm a people pleaser, I have to have control, or I okay, great. You discovered something about yourself, but we're trying to locate it in story, in reality, and in symptoms. Because it's only when we notice, oh my goodness, this is leading to things. Like, this is why my marriage fell apart. This is why I couldn't commit to one thing, one major in college, or I found myself kind of having to jump around different groups or even now different friend groups or whatever, because I don't know who I am and I'm having to say yes to everyone. And so we take a symptom and like a tracer chemical in the heart, you know, the ink injection, we're trying to find its root in story. And let me be clear when I say story here, I don't mean at the age of eight, when my parents divorced, you know, I knew I had to say yes to both, kind of a thing. Okay, that's an origin story. But what we're really trying to find out is where did it become sort of deeply ingrained in your system? This is your operating system, this is your way of surviving. And you can push pause a little bit on that and say, let's learn what a paradox is, and let's kind of feel how when a paradox becomes real, like today, this is happening and I don't know which to choose, and I'm freaking out. That's when we can begin to go, oh, I'm starting to notice the sensations with the ways my body operates, the ways my mind operates in these moments.
Defining Paradox And Finding Freedom
SPEAKER_01And I think what would be helpful right now is to kind of define the paradox.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, a paradox is a situation or an idea that appears to contradict itself, but may actually reveal a deeper, unexpected truth. And we are realizing there's freedom when you name paradoxes because both are true and both can be a right choice, whereas a bind feels like neither is a good option. And you're either burnt out or you'd have to talk to a boss, and neither feels good. So the work we do with Story Matters is to help people find freedom. But when you first name a paradox, it can feel like, oh, that's complex. That's gonna take a little mental energy, that's gonna take some wisdom to really live in those. Yeah, you're gonna need the Holy Spirit, the great counselor at every moment to give you wisdom, to know, wait, I need to understand how to live in this paradox. We do this work in order to gain wisdom, in order to need Jesus and the Holy Spirit more and more. It's not for independence.
SPEAKER_01I would love just to hear you share, you know, because I do remember some weeks ago where it just kind of clicked for you. And even though we've had conversations and it's filtered in and out of teaching, you were like, you know what, I want to do some work around paradox.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Obviously, we have used a sentence, and if you've listened to this podcast, you've heard us say this. But if you're new, a powerful sentence we heard many, many years ago from Dan Allender was the strongest person in your community is the one that can hold both the death and the resurrection of Jesus in your body. And you can say death or life, death or resurrection, and it's from 2 Corinthians 4. And there's that peace in your body. So what does that even mean? As I began to unpack it for some women's retreat material I was working on. It hit me when I realized to create safe environments and good friendships, the kind of place where we can show up and be fully known and seen, we have to be able to hold the depths of sorrow and joy, the pains and praises, heartbreak and excitements, like all the complexities of what we hold. And so I started realizing there's so many paradoxes all throughout
Proverbs 26 And The Wisdom Tension
SPEAKER_00scripture. And one day I thought, I just want to write them all out. Because I feel like the minute you say, Well, you know, we should always be joyful in all circumstances, you know, rejoice in the Lord always. And again, I say rejoice. Well, then you get to these grief verses, and you're like, wait, grief is invited and blessed. So I have a huge list, but there's one paradox that is kind of the most obvious in scripture, back-to-back verses and proverbs that many of you listeners I know will have heard before, and it's kind of funny when you read it because you're like, wait, what? In Proverbs 26, how to answer a fool. Basically, like, what do you do when someone says something really foolish? Verse four says, Don't respond. Okay, got it. Oh, wait, verse five says, do respond. And you're like, so wait, don't respond and then do respond. What am I missing here?
SPEAKER_01Verse four of 26 answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself. The very next verse, answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes. And I remember in seminary that the class was Psalms and Wisdom, Dr. Collins was going through this. He really landed on the fact that there isn't a final answer, and that's really frustrating. In fact, what's interesting is while I thought there was a lot of quote-unquote wisdom in what Dr. Collins was saying, I remember like, well, I think we've missed it. And I went through a phase where I'm like, no, it's it's it's exceedingly understandable. I thought what the proverb saying is the according to part, right? So if someone's being a fool and I am not to answer them according to their folly, I think the author is saying, don't act foolish in my engagement with the fool. But I do need to answer him according to the folly itself, that is the factual information or lack thereof, or he'll be wise. So see, as long as I can do that without acting like him. So I figured it out, we don't really have a paradox anymore, right? And then I'm like, no, we do, because here's the reality and why it's so powerful. How many times have we engaged somebody around politics or religion or something really important, especially with COVID and the modern stuff? You know, how many times, listener, have you engaged someone and you're like, this is the time I'm gonna stay so centered and focused. This person's clearly being foolish or an idiot. Maybe it's online, some kind of an online comment or whatever, and then boom, boom, boom, and now you're acting like you're eight years old. It happens, and that's the beauty of this proverb is it's opening the door to paradox. Emily, when you said holding death and resurrection, I can just hear listeners wherever they're driving or walking or whatever, go on eye roll. Like, how do you hold those two things? How do we do that? And I think what we want to say is before we get to that in our next episode with a little more clarity, will you just join us, listener, by recognizing it's our utter despisal of uncertainty?
SPEAKER_00Is despisal a word?
SPEAKER_01It is now. It's our hatred or discomfort with this uncertainty that keeps us kind of bound in these places where we don't name the mind.
Choosing Agency Instead Of Compulsion
SPEAKER_01We're sort of living out a scenario. And you said this a little bit ago. There's even some real fear if we begin to ask questions. And for example, we were in this conversation with a couple, they were sharing how the husband's boss wouldn't let him offer a very special event coming up. And it was one of those moments where it was like, really? Like, why not? And so we were kind of being drawn into the bind, right? The way it was it felt was here's the situation, this is the frustration, whatever. But I felt that bind, and I just said, Well, you could still go to this event. And I didn't really elaborate, but the moment that was said, there was a weird shift in the room. And I don't remember whether it was the wife or the husband, but this kind of look of incredulity, like what? Like that's crazy. But also, hmm, that feels freeing. Now, please hear me. I'm not saying I help them make a decision to not do something, whatever. The point is, death and resurrection is not just experiencing death. When we say enter death, we don't just mean I experience hardship. I lost a job, I have a disease, I lost a loved one, someone's betrayed me. That's me experiencing death. And I need to hold that true. What really has to be understood is Jesus, when he goes to the cross, famously says, I willingly give up my life. To which I'm sure the Roman guards roll their eyes, like whatever, we have you. We all know what he could have done. And when Paul says in Galatians 2.20, I have been crucified with Christ, he's saying, I have to come back to this reality over and over when I'm in situations like the ones you're in in Galatia. I have to come back to this point. I willingly have gone to the cross. And so we willingly enter death. And the point with this couple is if you're not going to go to this event, do so willingly. Do so because you're saying I choose. Looking at this scenario, I'm making the choice to enter death and stay with my job and in good graces with my boss, being fully aware that I could also go or even quit, etc. And not always make it about obviousness or like non-negotiables.
SPEAKER_00I had that just happen this week with someone I work with, did not feel that she could advocate for herself, but yet she was drawn to it. Like I could lose my job if I say this doesn't work for me. And it was a victorious moment because, in some ways, the way you're describing death is she chose to go against what was her norm. She knew this could be more troublesome if I advocate for myself. The boss could get more angry, you know, put more responsibility on me. And that was something she chose, like you're saying about Jesus. Like we're choosing to crucify the flesh. Like this is what I have always done. I've always been a yes man. I've always been the person that can be relied upon. If they give me double caseloads, I'll take it because I'm just that person. And it was amazing to watch her advocate for herself and get great news that the boss honored and heard her and said, Okay, then that's what we'll do. So I think what we want to unpack more fully in the episodes to come is that if we will name, we meaning you all, listeners, all of us, if we will name binds that we find ourselves in, and you don't have to call it that, but like, ooh, I'm in one of those moments. I gotta decide what to do, or I don't feel like I have a decision. If we can be aware, push it into the paradox arena, which I know we haven't named all the paradoxes of scripture, but we named the one from Proverbs, so you see, like, it's gonna take wisdom. Like, there's two sides to every coin, you know. One would be like, we're called to be peacemakers, but we're also called to hate evil. What does that look like? Do we just be quiet and let things be, or do we stand up for truth? There will often be in our daily life two things that could work, and we need wisdom. When you read about wisdom in Proverbs, it feels synonymous to Jesus. It's like, okay, we need the indwellment of the great counselor to know what do I do right now? And so this actually is our way of offering empowerment and freedom to each one of you listeners to imagine that you do have choices. Binds don't give you a choice. In a bind, you just feel like I'm damned if I do, I'm damned if I don't. Paradoxes give you a choice.
SPEAKER_01Well said. And as we close this episode, I want to name that this is not a series about how to make choices, though it will help. But it's actually a series on agency and being a human. That often we have set aside our freedom and our humanness because of the binds that we live out, most of which are unnamed and inherited through our upbringing. Now, when I say inherited, I mean we came to, you know, you've heard the phrase you come by it honestly, like through wounds, through the ways we've adapted through our flesh, certainly, but much of it unnamed and unseen. And again, often the kind of thing that really doesn't show up on a sin scan, you know, it's actually what makes you great. You always are friendly and you always say yes, or you're a hard worker, or you're always available to hang out, or you're always whatever. And we're trying to say, look, regardless of where, when we find the bind, and that's really what we're like getting the metal detector. We're trying to give you a metal detector for your soul to go, there's a bind, there's a bind, there's a bind. And it can bring freedom, even though often you're gonna continue doing what you were gonna do five minutes before it, but this time knowing you're doing it in the Lord with freedom rather than out of compulsion and requirement.
SPEAKER_00I love that. I do want to say something as we close out this intro episode.
Theology And Psychology Held Together
SPEAKER_00We're the intersection, we believe, of good theology and good psychology. So we have some listeners that if we go into scripture and the talk of sin and some language like that, there's a little bit of a resistance. We also have those that are a little bit resistant towards the psychology. Like just now, when you said we want to foster agency, that's like freedom, and you have a choice as a human. So the listeners that kind of have that resistance towards psychology are gonna go, but wait, we're slaves to Christ. We take up our cross. And we're gonna say, there's a paradox even there, because the whole meta-narrative is about God rescuing his people from slavery and into Christ, where Paul says it's for freedom that Christ has set you free. So I want to just kind of press into that because I think sometimes we hear things and think, oh, well, that's therapeutic language or that's psychology. I want to be really careful that I'm scripture only. And what we're gonna do in this series is actually unpack scripture and prove the psychology and the theology around living free and breaking the bondage of living in binds.