50. Have You Experienced Betrayal?

Betrayal is brutal: it takes a relationship, a community, or an institution that was supposed to be safe and turns it into a source of harm. 

We unpack betrayal trauma through the lens of shalom, the way things are supposed to be, and we talk about the “ripple effect” that spreads into your limbic system, your future relationships, and your view of God. We also name the amplification that happens when there is no repair: denial, cover-up, gaslighting, or the isolating experience of not being believed. Along the way we explore why “getting even” can become a false path to healing, and why pretending it never happened can be just as damaging to the soul.

We bring in Romans 12 to hold justice and mercy together, and we share insights from Dan Allender’s “The Healing Path” on how betrayal can expose the ways we look to people for ultimate safety and certainty. Finally, we get practical about coming back into your window of tolerance, paying attention to what your body is carrying, and learning to grieve what really happened so the wound no longer has power over you. If this conversation helps, subscribe, share it with someone walking through betrayal, and leave a review so more listeners can find the show.

Transcript

Welcome And Why Betrayal Matters

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to the Story Matters Podcast. I'm Ryan Baker.

SPEAKER_00 0:04

And I'm Emily Baker.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

We believe people grow and heal through understanding how our stories are rooted in God's redemptive story.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

We hope our conversations encourage you to engage your story and the world around you with a new lens.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

We're glad you're here. So in this episode, we want to do a little bit of a deeper look at betrayal and just shed some light on it. I think for some of us, it may be too strong of a word. Maybe you felt something of betrayal, but you've not gone to the place of naming it as such. For others, you're like, oh no, I've been betrayed and yet maybe not sure exactly what to do with that or where to go with it. And then for many of us, we just work alongside people who feel betrayed and we want to help them. So in this conversation, I just wanted to do a little bit of digging into what's underneath the betrayal. Why does it have an unquenchable thirst, if you will? There's in a way, once betrayed, it's like nothing will satisfy. And for many of us, we would say, oh no, what would satisfy is X, Y, or Z. But what we're going to talk about is yes, there are things that could bring comfort or closure or some healing. But often the things we think would satisfy simply wouldn't. And so we want to dive into that.

What Betrayal Really Is

SPEAKER_00 1:14

So, listeners, we've pushed record kind of midway through a conversation we've been having. And it's just so good to think through our longings to be met for certain harms or betrayals. And it's often through someone admitting they were wrong or justice being served or everyone seeing the truth about something that happened. And what we're noticing that we want to talk about today is there's something about betrayal that goes so deep that even the term betrayal trauma has been thrown around quite a bit, which is an important concept for unaddressed betrayal, because betrayal is like the ripples in a water of something that's happened. And we're trying to go, what was it? And basically, we would say betrayal is when a person or an entity that was supposed to provide safety or support or trust has now violated that trust in a significant way that your faith is shaken. Like you don't have faith in that person or faith in that entity. And so it's got a ripple effect.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Absolutely. And let's just come back to even a more simple beginning. When we have been harmed, we have been betrayed, right? Underneath all betrayal is the vandalism of shalom. If you've been following our podcast, we use the word shalom to mean much more than just peace. It's the way things are supposed to be. And so in every relationship we're in, there are implied agreements, and sometimes they're super explicit, like in the vows of marriage or with certain documents with an employer, but often they are implied as well. And yet, nonetheless, there is a very real need, real sense in that relationship of trust. And so when that's been broken in any way, there is a reality of betrayal. And as you said already, when an individual or an entity, a church, an organization, acts out of accord with their design, and it results in your harm. Now, this can range from something as seemingly innocuous as I wasn't invited to the event, to the party. That can feel like betrayal and it can be betrayal. And by the way, there is a difference, but nonetheless, in some sense, there is a betrayal. Of course, things as egregious as a spousal affair, of course, all the way to murder, but systematically, that's when an organization acts for its own preservation or its own needs and working against you to save itself.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

I love the way you said that there's things implied. It is interesting. We all build friendships, and there's the implications. Now, at a workplace, we may sign contracts and we have agreements that are written. There's a marriage vows where you actually say, I will be with you till death. But within friendships or other relationships where there's an implied commitment, it's like you're saying, Hey, I'm going to tell you a story and I trust you're not going to go tell this to someone else. Or I'm sharing a part of my life with you, but I'm going to trust that you'll stay in my life. We don't say those things, but that is implied. And when we lose a friendship, or when someone, like we talked about in our last episode about gossip, when we're spoken about and not to, there is that sense of, wait, I thought we had an agreement. I thought you were safe. And that's where that language of safety came from. Are you safe? Are you gonna be what you implying you're gonna be? You're looking as though and you're acting the part as though we are close and we have a friendship. But is that true?

Why Justice Does Not Erase Pain

SPEAKER_01 4:30

That's so good. When there is a betrayal, we are so disoriented. And when you think about how the Bible in so many places tells us, the Christian, that there will be justice one day, right? Romans 12. That once all the cards are laid, the truth will come to be seen and rightfully felt. That's what we all have a little bit of hope in, right? One day, someday, it'll all come to light. And yeah, I find this difficult to imagine.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

Yeah, a lot of the psalms speak to that. And I find myself wrestling with, is it gonna even matter? Right.

SPEAKER_01 5:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

Like, okay, you know, it could take a decade for certain truths to come out, and by then, I don't care. Like I've moved on, but right now I'm in so much pain. I want it now.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

The Bible seems to indicate that, hey, God's got this, and one day, someday you'll see it. And yet, if we're honest, like for me, I'm like, okay, what's it gonna be like at the end of time when I want someone to come along and say, hey, that you were right. This was betrayal. And I would love at some point that betrayer to go, my gosh, I feel horrible. I'm willing to sit down and let's watch a video. Yeah, I'm willing to really dive deep into this, right? And it's it's sort of like the end of some fun game or competition where everyone's explaining their performance, so you, or maybe their injury if it's a workout of some kind or an experience, and the listener is smiling and you're nodding, and you're really just waiting so that you can do the same back. Like, uh-uh, yeah, yep. I had mine too. And then let me tell you mine. How can we all, right at the edge of time, possibly stop to care about all the heartaches a person faces in our mortal existence? That's a burning question. Like, how can this be made right? If what has happened to me can come to light and a a group, a jury of people can watch and look at it and say, aha, yes, we see you, that that will take away the betrayal. And yet, even as I say that, listener, I think you know it won't. Of course, justice is so important or at least being seen, but nothing, that's the challenge, nothing will actually take away the original wound itself.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

You and I have talked this through before, so I want to see if I can put words to it, that there's been a betrayal, there's been an action of harm done by someone that shouldn't have done that. Whether it's a family member, a friend, a church entity, some person or some group of people have harmed you, I think, at least I do, and maybe you listener can agree. I think we think if that can be reversed, like if those people can apologize, or if that person can recognize that they were really wrong and there's good, honest repair, that will heal the betrayal. And I think what we're realizing is that can heal that actual surface level harm, right? And it can restore the relationship. But what was done in the harm actually went deeper into our faith of believing in humanity. I can't trust this person, grew to, I can't trust people, or I can't trust churches. There's a deeper wound going on in betrayal.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

I would also say the word healing is troublesome because, in some sense, you know, what we long for there's the one day, someday, all things sad are made untrue, right? Untrue. This side of heaven, they're not untrue. The wound did happen. You can see a scar. If I walk with the limp, something's gone wrong. I might say, oh, but I've been healed, but my functionality is now altered forever. And so we've done a lot on the limbic system in this podcast. And I would say, even though judiciously a person has apologized, the wound still exists, and the healing in some ways can be robust, but it will never be as though the wound never happened.

Trauma And The Amplification Effect

SPEAKER_00 8:01

Well, and I think this is getting to the argument to not look back. A lot of people have verbalized to me, I'm never gonna get what I really want. I'm not gonna get an apology, I'm not gonna get justice, I'm not gonna get someone admitting they did something, and here's the truth that I know to be true. I'm not gonna get that from this thing that happened to me, whether it was a month ago or 20 years ago. So why even go back? Like I need to get past it. That's gonna be my healing, is to get past it. And I think we're saying you may never get the apology, you may never get the justice, but there's actually deeper healing for the trauma from betrayal that can be healed, even if the actions never apologize for. And that's what I think we need to go into because betrayal went into the limbic system. It broke trust deep in our bodies of I don't know if I can trust God, I don't know if I can trust humans. Why do I even pray? Like it gets to the deeper levels of trust.

SPEAKER_01 8:59

Yeah, one of the key features in the formation of trauma, of a trauma, is not only that the action was done or not done. We always want to show that sometimes the trauma is something that wasn't done for you. But the way we were met in the aftermath, right, when there was repair or sorrow or believability, then there's often some form of healing. And now this doesn't diminish the seriousness of the initial action or inaction, but rather it introduces the existence of an amplification, right? When there's been repair, that's not to say, oh, then the initial trauma or traumatic action isn't that serious anymore. But rather, what we would say is in those healthy exchanges, something bad happened, there was a rupture, and there was a repair. What was stopped was possibly the amplification of the original harm.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

Okay, like the ripples of its effects, like into our limbs as well.

A Real World Repair Scenario

SPEAKER_01 9:45

When you think of an amplifier, it takes a noise, it makes it louder. So if you've been harmed, that's bad, that has its own degree of harm of vandalism of shalom. But using the ripple analogy or concentric circles, there are further harms or amplifications of the harm when we're not believed, when it continues, when we're gaslit, whatever it is, now you have the original plus this amplification or furthering or even additional harm is being done to us. And so what we're naming with that is of course, the original repair is vital, but it doesn't take away the wound. It just it le it keeps it at a place where healing might not need to be robust, as the harms that we've engaged where betrayals have happened. And uh typically with the word betrayal, there was a zero repair, right? In fact, there's almost zero believability. There's denying of the wound. And so then you're left with a kind of a double whammy, that is the original wound, and now the subsequent amplification in the community or whatever the situation is where you're having addition literally additional harms are being done. People are trying to cover it up, or people are taking sides or building allegiances. And so all of that is is actually in addition to the original harm, but it's tied to it. So that's why I'm choosing the word amplified. It's being replayed but louder for you.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

Okay, let me see if I can say everything you just said because it really leaned it for me, but I'm gonna put it into kind of a practical scenario. So, men, women, you're in a relationship at work or in friendship, and someone that you trust, you find out has gone behind your back and said something about you that they've not told you, and it has come back to you and it's very hurtful. Okay, so that's just a basic talking behind the back scenario. All of a sudden, you begin to doubt a lot of things. You're getting flooded with why did they betray me? Who can I trust? Who's against me? But then within a matter of hours or days of you finding this out, that person comes to you incredibly humbled and wants to talk to you privately and apologize. And they're very sorrowful. Not that they got caught, they're sorrowful that they hurt you. There's top-tier good repair. So we're going back into the power of repair is that your relationship with that person is restored. They even check back in, they go back to others with honesty. Now, with that scenario, you would still maybe catch yourself the next time you're with that person or talking to someone. You might have in your mind, can I trust this person? But what you really well articulated with that word amplification is when there's not repair, which we all know is the norm, sadly, then we don't have that particular talking behind the back healed. And on top of that, we doubt in every conversation, will this person betray me? So the ripple effect is the ripples have now amplified to every relationship we're in. Can I trust you?

SPEAKER_01 12:39

I think what we're wanting to address is the fact that while when we're in the seat of the betrayed, we're often awaiting some sort of a response that has the result of the effect of extinguishing the underlying pain. In your scenario, the coworker or whomever came, and I feel seen. And let's say they did everything possible. They went to every person they told, those people acknowledge, et cetera, et cetera. However, it won't extinguish the underlying pain. It will help and it's important and it's part of healing. But what we're talking about is the fact that there's something even deeper in our pain and our hurt that we need to acknowledge. The Bible, it doesn't say, hey, because one day, someday vengeance is mine, or it'll all be brought to light. That is not meant to suggest that God will take it too lightly, right? It actually is saying you're taking it too lightly. I think as long as I hold the position that here are the things I need to take away my pain, I'm actually wanting too little, not too much. The bar of the C.S. Lewis line that God offers us the holiday at the beach. This idea that you're hanging out in the alleyway making mud pies, like what we think would make our pain go away, could help, but it won't extinguish it. And the reason for that is something far more visceral has taken place.

Deeper Healing Than Getting Even

SPEAKER_00 13:49

I relate with this because when I have felt betrayed in my life, or I really have been betrayed, my go-to is a real strong desire for justice. I think if truth can be revealed and everybody can stand in agreement, then I will feel better. My wound will be healed. And I think you're demonstrating that there would be some healing, but it's like at the moment of a betrayal, there is the actual action that can be reversed and healed, but something's happened under the surface with my faith. So something's happening deeper. And so going off of your C.S. Lewis idea of we're asking too little of God, I'm thinking this is a huge ask for everyone to see the truth, but it's actually not getting to the deeper, huge ask of God. But Ryan, explain a little bit more what you mean by some of this deeper healing.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

Yeah. If someone were in implicit agreements of trust, especially a spouse, when that's been shaken, it's not just, well, hey, there's been repair and now you're back to normal. In some ways, a part of you, a core part of you, has been wounded. And that's another circle in the in this whole thing where how do we get to that place? How do we get healing there? Just because someone says they're sorry or admits to things, that's where the deeper recesses of our soul need to be tended to.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

Like these deeper wounds caused by past betrayals are still living in their limbic system. But how would someone like that find healing? What are you saying that if there's a deeper wound, there's got to be deeper healing? I think you're saying something a little bit like Jack Miller used to say, cheer up, you're worse than you think. But cheer up, you're more loved than you ever imagined. So the gospel shining light onto betrayal would say, cheer up, it's actually worse than you think. But cheer up, there's deeper healing than you think.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Yeah, we would say, cheer up, the wound is far deeper.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Yeah, it's not just that one action.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

Until you get to the deeper places, you're gonna just be out for blood. You're just gonna be mad at that person or system, you're gonna scoff at everything, you're gonna cynically say all kinds of things, but until you can name, you know what, this is not about them anymore. This is something core within me that was wounded. And yes, what brought that to light and what caused it was this external thing, this, you know, a spouse, a boss, a pastor. But we have to get to that deeper place. And again, I think we're trying to say, in some sense, the actual wound won't go away. The healing is you will not be susceptible to it any longer. It will not have power over you. When Jesus is resurrected, he shows Thomas his wounds. Why is that important? Well, those wounds no longer had power over Jesus, right? But they were there and useful. And I think that's what we're trying to say is if your goal in being betrayed is to get past this feeling, almost like you can think of it and not be bothered anymore, or for that pain to disappear. And the way we're going about that disappearance is going after the aggressor, then we'll never get there. We'll just be mad at that aggressor. And in some ways, I think it's like being stuck in the first stage of grief. We're not accepting. It's weird to think of acceptance as a state of grief, actually being able to name a betrayal. In a way, my life on a timeline has a pre and a post this event. And I can make peace with that because of the blood of Christ. It won't be easy. But what I think so often what we're trying to do is get rid of that fork. We're trying to get rid of that point. We want it to be gone.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

When we're betrayed, I think there's something deep in our shameful, fallen selves that says, I knew it. I knew that was too good to be true. I really had a good community, I really had a good relationship. It's been broken and I cannot trust. And when you just said that we are out for blood, like there's something about we want to go for our betrayer to get a fulfillment. It's like we are going at that person to make all things feel right again. Like not just the brokenness of this shalom. If I can get justice, I will feel better about all of life. And that's the lie.

The Two Traps After Betrayal

SPEAKER_01 17:47

And let me play the opposite of that, by the way. That, and it may be one I even might be more prone to at times, but I've seen in certain individuals the I'm gonna have amnesia toward it. It's like it never happened. I'm not gonna let them have anything over me. Or the Bible says to forgive and I've forgiven so fully, it's as if it never happened. And man, that feels so right. But to me, there's a that's a fawn. It's a limbic response. It's I'm so afraid of coming back to this that I have to begin to fawn. And in other words, I've gotten rid of justice completely. One side wants only justice and no mercy. This side might be the one that only wants to have mercy but no justice. And what it ends up doing is it's can has to be confusing for our own soul. Wait a minute, wasn't that painful? Didn't that hurt? Didn't that actually happen? And if every every turn we would tell that part of our soul, no, no, it actually never really did. I think it was just a blip, a mistake. It didn't happen. Keep moving. You know, that is dysfunction at its core. And I don't have a perfect way of saying it right now, but everything in me wants to be able to explain why that's wrong. So you do it.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

Well, if that's your tendency, which is not mine, but plenty of our listeners can attest, and we've heard people say that that's why we don't want to look back. I've just truly gotten past it. I'm fine. I've given mercy, I've given forgiveness, I'm fine. If we don't acknowledge the harm of the brokenness of shalom, then we are in essence living with a new normal. And we talked about this way back in our season one series about shalom that when we have to navigate a blockage in the road that we walk on a normal basis, we have to now drive around that. Like we're now navigating our life around a reality, but pretending it's not there. And that's not the path of God. Like he's always for truth and healing. And so it's just a it's a denial of a reality.

The Cross Holds Justice And Mercy

SPEAKER_01 19:35

Yeah. So one way, the way of squeezing blood from a turnip, I'm gonna get something out of this. The problem there is we're wanting more than can be had, and we're trying to remove a real wound by choking out a person. And in so many ways, the way evil is that wound is far larger and it's so many more ripples than just that person in that event. But we feel like if we're kind to them or we don't snub them, then what's going to happen is it's gonna be basically our way of saying it didn't happen. We're gonna lose the actuality of their wrongdoings. So we stay angry. But on the other extreme, if we are super kind, we're back to normal and let bygones be bygones, and this is what I think you're saying. We're basically saying that action was actually not wrong. In fact, it didn't even really happen. It was probably just my imagination. I think everything's fine. We're good. I don't even want to talk about it. And yet, what that's doing is that's communicating to our own soul and the community that that is now acceptable behavior.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

So I want us to imagine horizontal lines, and the gap between them is the betrayal that needs healing. And Jesus fills the gap of the bottom line and the top line, and it goes back to the cheer up comment. Cheer up, you're worse than you think, but cheer up, there's more healing than you can imagine. I think in either of your scenarios of either choking out, I'm gonna go get justice, I'm gonna reveal the truth, I'm gonna have everyone agree that I was betrayed. That's our way of pulling that bottom line up. I'm gonna bring this up to my healing level, if healing's in the middle. But the way you described it was, no, I'm gonna pull down, I'm gonna dumb down what actually happened so that there isn't any even need for healing. It's fine. I'm just gonna let it go, things roll off my back. That's the best way to live. And in both of those scenarios, we're now cutting out the need for the cross. If the cross fills the gap of the bottom line and the top line, that there really was a harm done, and there really is a level of truth and purity and shalom at the top line, then what we've done in either of those is just saying, I can't bear to turn to Jesus for my healing. So I'm gonna get it myself, either by going and getting the justice myself or by telling myself it doesn't exist. We're cool, we're good.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

We quoted Romans 12, which seems to be against the version go after it, right? It's like, hey, chill.

SPEAKER_00 21:49

Love your enemy. Uh huh.

SPEAKER_01 21:51

And it says, let love this is verse line of 12, let love be genuine, abhor what is evil. Wait, how do I say there is no evil? I think it's great. Hold fast to what is good. Everything's good, man. In other words, we're called to distinguish, right? Uh do not be slothful in zeal, but be fervent in the spirit. Serve the Lord. Rejoice in hope. Be patient in tribulation. Again, you have to name tribulation to be patient in it, right? You have to name that there's a problem. It says, Bless those who persecute you. Well, I can't be doing that if I don't think they're persecuting me. I have to name that they're doing that. That means we're naming hard things. We're not ignoring that there is evil.

Dan Allender On Idols And Betrayal

SPEAKER_00 22:27

Well, I appreciate everything you just said, and I love Romans 12. But I will say, if anyone is in a stage of life where they have freshly been betrayed and their chest aches and their stomach turns, and they are either angry or they're wanting to check out, it's very hard to hear those words. Love your enemy. So we want to make a plug right now for a book that has been super influential to both of us for over two decades. And it was our entry point into Dan Alander's work. And the book is called The Healing Path. And the Healing Path deals so much with betrayal that as we started having this conversation about betrayal, a lot was coming back to me from what we've read. And I just want to read a little portion from one of his chapters about betrayal. And I think it's specifically about what we're talking about, about this deeper longing and a deeper wound. And even us asking for things that we think will satisfy, but there's actually something deeper. And here's what Dan Allator says all human relationships, even our most intimate alliances, are temporary and incomplete. When we demand that another person provide safety, certainty, and fulfillment of our deepest desires, we are turning from God to an idol for the fulfillment of those needs. When we turn from God, we inevitably demand of others the very things we miss in our relationship with God. If we don't know his deep care and protection, then we will insist on another human being to provide what we lack. And that demand is the genesis of lust and murder. And so he goes on to say essentially that the betrayal, whether it's real or perceived, soon would spawn in us a new sin. The betrayal of the betrayers becomes an anger that will become fierce. And that's why he says lust and murder. So when we've been betrayed, we can all understand that there's an anger that comes. And we've been saying you either suppress it and act like it's not there or it rages out. But either way, the deep longing is for Jesus. We just don't often name that.

SPEAKER_01 24:33

That's so well said, of course. And again, we highly recommend the healing path. A lot of people have read the wounded heart, which came before the healing path. Yeah, a big thing that we're trying to say, and I think what Dan is saying, is in the wake of a betrayal, the perception we can have is that it could be removed, that there's something that can take it away from existing. Again, we do believe in the healing of the pain. We believe in the healing of the effects through neuroplasticity, all these things we believe in, but none of those things are ever going to take away the actual fact that a wound happened, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:06

And that needs grief. That particular thing that happened needs grief.

Grief Triggers And Trusting God Again

SPEAKER_01 25:10

It needs to be grieved. Yeah, instead of that grief, often what we're going to do is either build a coalition, people to help us prove stay hate the betrayer, hate the betrayer, or we're going to not have anyone coming to our aid and we're going to feel like that's our mission is will anybody listen to us, right? And there's other things in between. But what we're trying to say is if you can come to the acceptance of the fact that it did happen and grieve and run to the Lord, the healing will begin and already has begun. And then there will be continual triggers of that betrayal. But I think that gives me hope when I can stay centered, come back to the Lord and realize, okay, that happened. That thing happened. And learning, I use the word ontological, like what really did happen. Trying to really understand and go to the Lord and seek his face and cry out, but then also begin to notice what things came up, what reactions came up, what triggers came up, what other wounds, if you will, were repricked, you know. And that's where so much of the healing actually happens. And Lord, what do you want me to do in light of this betrayal? What do you want me to do in light of this harm? Is there a new direction I'm going? Is there a new place you would take me? But all of these things happen through, as you just said, Emily, an acceptance through grieving. Okay. I can't go back to the day before this happened. This is real. This is now a part of my life.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

And we also will have, I think, a lot of language that will come up in our heads. I should have known, or I should never have trusted, or I'm so stupid. Here I go again. This has happened before, I should have known. If it happens once, shame on you. If it happens twice, shame on me. Dang it, I should have never filled the blank, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:52

If it happens three times, shame on you again. That's not how it works. There's a comedian who has a bit on that.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

And then the fourth time, back to me.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

Back to me, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

Yeah, but so I think we don't want to grieve. And so that will come up. Dang it, why? Why did I trust? And I think what that Dan Alender quote points me to is that reminder that betrayal cuts us at the knees of believing in humanity, whether it's a person or an entity. And we were never supposed to fully trust in that person or entity for our deepest longings. Now that doesn't mean shame on us. It means it's a fresh reminder that we cannot choke out of this world what is actually only ours through Christ. So we do need safety. We do need to have trust with humans, but a fresh reminder that it's not our fault when we're betrayed, but it's an invitation to come back to Lord, you are my safety. You are my safe place, you are my hiding place, you are my one trustworthy relationship.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Amen. Yeah. I think that's well said, and let's just keep navigating that line. No human relationship can take the place of the pure righteousness of Jesus. Just can't. But we don't want to be cynical and say, therefore, we won't be near humans. He calls us to be in relationship. But we do so as sinner saints. We do so as people who will wound and will harm and will be harmed. And again, what we're not saying is say la vie because everybody does it, but nor are we saying go after the harm looking for blood, unless by the blood you mean the blood of Christ. And so the challenge is in the gospel, of course, is to actually see the wound as bigger than you're making. It's far bigger. It's something so big that the aggressor cannot atone for it. Only that Jesus can atone. And when we get there, we're not going to then forget it happened, but we can forgive and remember.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

You mentioned in one of our episodes about needful things that if the enemy can make a person betray us in any way, from like you said, small to big, it will cut at our faith in God. And it always does come back to when we feel betrayed, we ask, Is God really good? Is God trustworthy? Why would God let this happen? Those big existential questions that can really be a beautiful faith builder if we stay with it, but it can also lead to being numb. And we find a lot of people in this stage of numb to I don't know if God's trustworthy. I don't know if he's good. I don't know if the church, I don't know if men, like they can make it so big that one action had such a ripple effect. And so I think it's really good just to talk through betrayal for the sake of bringing it to light to know, listeners, you're not alone. We've all been betrayed. And I think when we're betrayed, we feel so isolated. Which you mentioned this about we either are living with a secret that we wish people knew and we want to tell it and we wish someone would hear our story, or we're trying to grab anyone we can to hear our story to the point that it's building an army against our betrayer.

Window Of Tolerance And Next Steps

SPEAKER_01 30:03

I think what I would long for anybody listening, the most practical thing, is paying attention to our body when we're angry, stirred up, you know that feeling, and understand that there's something in that season or in that emotion that says, if I calm down, I will lose. If I calm down and regain control again, so to speak, then whatever it was will disappear. The evil wins. And evil will win. And what we're trying to say is number one, it happened. It's real, it doesn't disappear. You can't make it go away. No one can make it go away, right? The wound happened. And then secondly, God cares more than you about it and cares far more for you than you know. And so you can rest, you can take a breath, you can come back into your window of tolerance. And then I think it's very healing to do some real work around and writing around what it is, like really coming to a again, a forensic or an ontological view of what took place, and then prayerfully asking the Lord what to do with it. But all of this to say we don't have to stay angry to keep it alive. We can come back to our window of tolerance.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

That's so good. That is such a great way to encourage all of us as we finish this episode and think through how have we been betrayed? How are we hanging on to anger? And what would it look like for us to get back in our window of tolerance and ask for deep healing? Because anger will only lead us to that place of betraying the betrayer and then leading us into sin if we can say, Lord, take this. I need your blood. I think that's just a really powerful place to at least start with our betrayals.