45. Why We Avoid What Heals Us

Resistance is something we all feel at times. We know growth is good, we know story work matters, and yet we'd rather stay in “get things done” mode rather than feel what’s tender. We lean into that tension of a nervous system that doesn’t want to shift gears.  When we lack flexibility, we get stuck in one state of being and even small endeavors like journaling can feel costly. 

We talk through the importance of integration: having access to many inner states and choosing what fits the moment. That leads to simple practices like a one minute transition pause, noticing ambivalence and honest naming. This is real strength: separating feelings from identity so we can stay present and wise.

We go deeper into sexual trauma and the complexity of ambivalence, including how grooming and abuse can create a confusing mix of harm and bodily response. We’re careful here: naming complexity never excuses abuse. But what goes unnamed keeps power, and bringing the whole truth into the light is often part of reclaiming what was buried and moving toward healing. 

We close by widening the lens to our polarized world and to Christian discipleship: learning to listen, hold nuance, and become more fully human in relationship with others.

Transcript

elcome To Story Matters

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Story Matters Podcast. I'm Ryan Baker.

SPEAKER_00 0:04

And I'm Emily Baker.

SPEAKER_01 0:05

We believe people grow and heal through understanding how our stories are rooted in God's redemptive story.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

We hope our conversations encourage you to engage your story and the world around you with a new lens.

hy We Resist Story Work

tates Of Being And Integration

SPEAKER_01 0:17

We're glad you're here. In today's conversation, Emily and I are going to move closer to a pattern we see both with clients, but also in our own lives. And that is at times we can feel a resistance to move toward the place we need to be for growth. It can be for a moment, it can be for a season, but oftentimes we've noticed with others and ourselves, initially we can move into story work, super curious, really wanting to understand our own ways of being, plus the harms that have been done. And then there are other moments where that feels a million miles away. And there can even be a sense that it would be costly at this point to do. I've got things to do, I've got things to accomplish. And so one of the words we banty around a lot is ambivalence. And the heart behind this topic is there's a varying number of places within, emotionally, energy, parts of our mind, our heart, et cetera, that can be steering us in the moment. And one of the things that we think is important for health is to understand that we have different states of being. Dan Siegel, who's one of the pioneers of interpersonal neurobiology, if you've read Kurt Thompson, then in some ways you've read Dan Siegel. A lot of you may have read The Whole Brained Child. That's one of his more popular books for parents. But he talks about domains, and one of them is states. And what he's teaching there is that we have in health a plethora of states of being that are at our disposal. So in one moment, you may need to be focused and serious and even business-minded. In another moment, you're with friends, you're laughing or sad or all these different states of being, right? And the goal of health of integration is that these are being used appropriately at the appropriate times. But as we know, living in a fallen world with fallen bodies, we can have discs integration. And that means that for many of us, either we don't have access to certain states, or when we need one, we're sort of stuck in another one. And one of the more common ones is busyness, kind of seriousness, getting things done, whatever. So today we just want to unpack that a little to ask can we regain the awareness that even sitting here right now taking a breath, we have like an artist looking at their palette of colors, we have choices and options for states of being. And often we skip right over that and just move into one. And we're trying to regain the ability to pause and notice in our right mind choose the appropriate state for the situation we're in.

hifting Gears Without Shame

SPEAKER_00 2:46

That sounds a little bit like choosing a podcast, if you think about it, because often we'll get in a car or we'll get ready for a jog and we'll decide what do we want to listen to. Do I feel like something funny today? Something lighthearted? Do I want to learn? Do I want to feel? Do I want to get captivated by a story or a mystery? Like you said, we go through seasons of wanting to grow. And I know what it's like to be on one side of a Zoom call. And when a client shows up, you know, there's the greetings, and then it's like, hey, how are you today? And it's such a common thing for me to hear, I'm good. I just had so much resistance to actually getting on here. I mean, of course, I love being with you, Emily, but this is hard work. Like I didn't want to pull myself out of kind of a happy, good day of getting things done around the house, or I didn't want to have to feel the story that I wrote. I didn't even want to write the story. I procrastinated and I just now wrote it. There was so much resistance. And I always want to bless that and say, I get it. I have it too. And there's no shame in that. It's really just good to recognize that we don't want to shift gears. Thinking about what you just said, that we have different states of being. I used to drive a stick shift, and it really would be like trying to only live in second gear. We need to shift gears. We need to be able to have those moments of sadness, those moments of excitement, those moments where we can be with friends around a table laughing and we're not always in our serious mind. It's a strength when we can have multiple states and be able to fluidly go in and out of those appropriately and not be so rigid that we're only the serious, left-brained, business-minded person, or we're only the happy-go-lucky, humorous one that lightens up the room. I mean, can we weep with those who weep? Can we rejoice with those who rejoice?

SPEAKER_01 4:29

I love what you're describing with your clients. And similarly, a lot of the men I meet who are coming off of a hard day's work in the midst of one, about to head into one. And as we know, there's a state of being to go into the workplace, regardless of what the exact vocation is. And you had to stop and process something from when you're six, or maybe something that's happened recently in your marriage, but it's not happening right now as you're heading into work. Can feel like, why am I doing this? Why am I stopping and going back? And we want to name what it feels like. Like there's a part of us that knows could be good for us to pause, to enter the conversation. And this is not just about getting on with a counselor. This is maybe on my drive home. Like you're saying about podcast choosing, like I'm going to transition to home and what am I going to think about? Am I going to listen to music? Am I going to pray? Am I going to just kind of veg out my brain? Whatever. But the question is, how are we practicing self-awareness in order to ascertain what state of being is appropriate? And also, what are we feeling? Do I even know that I feel resistance? Like I'm about to walk into the door and I'm going to walk into, say, a crowded home with lots of things going on, and I'm not ready for that coming off of the busy day. Or another person might be like, I'm about to walk into an empty home and I'm leaving a place that had a lot of activity, a lot of rush. And so we're kind of always in these transitions, whether they're just times of day or emotional transitions or whatever. But how do you, listener, navigate that shift where you are moving into another state? And how do we do it without shame? And by that, what I mean is often we feel like it's wrong, like I shouldn't get sad right now. If I get sad, there's a problem. If I feel lonely, there's a problem. Can I accept the fact that that is a current sensation versus the idea that most of us have is that's wrong. I've got to throw up the shield and pretend I'm okay.

mbivalence As Multiple Real Feelings

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Well, I think what you're describing is can you shift states or are you gonna just get overwhelmed or shut down? And John Eldridge brilliantly developed the pause app. He came up with the idea of the minute transition pause, that no matter what you're doing, if you're driving up to a doctor's appointment or you're arriving at a board meeting or you're walking in the door, like you said, coming home from work, if you can take the one minute and breathe and let your body transition, it is allowing for that shift so that there isn't overwhelm or shutdown. Because if we're honest, in the world we live in, we could be driving to a doctor's appointment that we don't know what the diagnosis is going to be. While our child texts us from school that they forgot their lunch, while we get a call from our sister that wants to chat about our aging parent and the latest thing that's happening there. When you drive by and you see two friends walking and you weren't invited, just think about the overwhelm of what can happen in a 10-minute drive. So those pauses can be such a tool to be able to process emotions and shift to the different states or domains.

SPEAKER_01 7:29

Oh, I I love that. I'm not great at that, but I do love that. And I I want to ask, maybe see if you agree, Em. I know you always tease me. I maybe I go into complex areas I don't need to, but with ambivalence, I'm always urging clients to remember and myself that we have multiple feelings at the same time. And it's not always just two, but what makes this topic so important is we are mostly unaware of it. We tend to block out something. So, in the example of coming into the home where there's a lot going on, it would be very easy to assume any negative thought, any thought of irritation is flat out wrong, and that should be banished. And so you're just gonna gravitate toward the thought of I need to get in and get things done so everyone's happy or whatever. So my wife and I, or my husband and I can get along here. But what would it look like to pause? Maybe it's even after you've walked in the door and you've realized this, and you need to go take a moment. So hug everybody, go to the bathroom and breathe. I think you shared the bathrooms trick once in one of our podcasts. But to say and even pray, like, I am overwhelmed. I've got a lot that's happened. Lord, will you be with me and help me be who I need to be in this next moment? So I'm now choosing a state, but I'm not like a slave to it. I'm able to do so with choice, with agency, and with full awareness. Can I be honest with these internal places rather than just pretending they're not there or even worse, not even knowing that they're there?

SPEAKER_00 8:57

Yeah, we don't really normally set goals for ourselves about our nervous system, but basically what you're saying, hey, I would love to see myself grow in the area of being able to arrive at work or arrive at home or be able to care for someone needy and be aware of irritation, be aware of the stimulants that are coming in and the way my nervous system wants to either get me into hyper-arousal and I'm anxious and I'm in go mode, or I shut down and I'm in hypo arousal and I can't even think. Like a goal of being regulated in these kinds of situations is brilliant, and that's the strength of someone that can go in and out of different states of mind fluidly. And yet, I do think we need to rethink strength because usually if we are sensitive and aware of our bodies and we can feel things coming up. We as a culture, I think, have made that into like, yeah, that's because I'm so weak. And some people are just so strong, they're just fine, they just go, they just are like machines. And I would say we gotta flip that on its head and recognize that there's a reason why there was a whole study done on leaders that if they are comfortable with their own tears, they're a better leader because they aren't intimidated or fragile around having to make decisions, having to feel certain things. Just think about this. If you're a businesswoman or a businessman and you've had an idea that you've been sitting on for a while and you've been developing it, but when the board gets together, the decision is made to go in a different direction. There's gonna be emotions about that. And if you can't be aware of sadness or frustration or anger, and you just have to barrel through, your nervous system is not able to process rightly the humanity of what that felt like. Like you've gotta feel, or those emotions are gonna be expressed in damaging ways.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

Another aspect that's in the same exact vein, you're in the boardroom or you're with a leadership team, and there's a criticism.

trength Through Regulation And Tears

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Oh, for sure. And you and I have experienced this even when we talk through ideas. If I don't feel like you agree with me, or you don't feel like I agree with you, we can immediately feel shut down. Like, wait, you didn't hear me out. And if you heard me out, you would agree with me. And that absolutely triggers people right and left. I feel shut down. I feel like I'm not heard.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Yeah, so Emily, bring that back. Then tell me how, okay, here we are in this conversation about states of being and and the awareness of what's going on internally. We're complex beings and we have all sorts of things happening, but what's the importance then for that person that received the criticism and is all of a sudden face to face with this moment of disintegration? How does this topic help that person?

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Well, so if you can slow down and recognize when you do feel anything, and you can actually say, I feel really embarrassed or shut down or disregarded, we're saying that's actually a strength. See, narcissists cannot allow themselves to be wrong. They have to be right. They have to override these human feelings. So they present the mentality, it's my way or the highway. And if anyone comes against that kind of weak-minded person, you're gonna get unleashed on, right? And that's a fragility that has disguised itself into like a superpower, right? So it looks strong, but the strong person is actually someone that can say, okay, recognize that I my idea wasn't taken. That makes me feel sad, but I'm gonna trust that this is not a character flaw. Like that one particular idea is not accepted, that doesn't mean I'm not accepted. So see, they're able to separate out the feeling they are having versus identity.

fter Criticism Notice What Happened

SPEAKER_01 12:36

Absolutely. And first of all, I love what you're saying about the narcissist. I want to circle back, but first let's just say just the ability to pay attention. We talk a lot about that in this podcast. So whether it's a spouse, a person you work with, a boss giving you a criticism, and that may be done well, and often it's not done well. Most of us go out of our limbic system. Maybe we just fawn. We just, oh, thank you for the feedback. Maybe we're angry, maybe we fight a little bit, like we push back, maybe we freeze a little bit. But what's what we're saying here is regardless of what you do in real time, the goal will be as soon as possible to allow yourself to pause, relive the moment, and pay attention to some deep wounds that you felt. And what can create shame is there will be this voice that's like, why are you getting all bent out of shape over this little thing? But yet what we're needing to do is have the courage to go, oh my goodness, I felt my blood pressure, I felt my ears get hot. I actually had thoughts of like I'm in the wrong work or I'm in the wrong relationship or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Or I hate that guy that just said that, or I hate her now, like a very decisive judgment.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

No, they're after me. They're out to get me.

SPEAKER_00 13:45

I'm not safe.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

Yes. And what's even kind of crazier is most of that happens unobserved or unnamed, but it has full effect. And so what we're really pressing for is noticing these other places that we would typically like to act like never happened. If someone's like, How is that? I mean, it was pretty good. I mean, most of us would either overstate the bad or just act like it was fine. But what we're talking about is can you go before your heavenly father with yourself practicing the presence that you're safe, that you're loved, and now you can inquire? And and a lot of the inquiry we're talking about is just what is going on in me? How am I doing? How do I become regulated again? And can I hold the fact that I felt several different things almost at once? And can I name all of those without dismissing the others? In other words, can I name I felt anger, but I also want to say that might have been good criticism, or I felt dismissed, but also I recognize that it's probably important points. You know, can I hold different views at once?

SPEAKER_00 14:47

So here's a common pattern that I've experienced, and I hear it with a lot of people I work with. A situation will happen. I think I need to do some work around what came up for me. Like, what was that? So I'll spend maybe a day or two kind of journaling through that scenario. Why did I feel so strongly this way? And then I, you know, I may get some insight as to like, okay, in my story, this was a place of danger or that was a protector. And then I may not fully understand it, but I I get to kind of an ending, and I think that was good enough. However, I have committed to doing ongoing story work, insightful work, and I'm committed to practicing working with either my therapist or I meet with a friend or I talk to you on a regular basis, and I and I have that desire to really understand myself. And the pattern is I don't want to go back into that a week later, but yet my integrity says I need to. And I hear this happen when people sign on with me. It's like I didn't want to, but I'm committed to this. So here I am. And I think that's when we see so much growth, it's when we've pushed through the resistance. We're willing to get out of the state of happiness that we're in, and we're willing to look at something again with fresh eyes.

mbivalence In Trauma And Sexual Abuse

SPEAKER_01 16:00

That to me is the topic of this conversation. And I know as you and I were talking before we started recording, I kept saying the word ambivalence, which is way used. I don't want to say it's overused, but I think it's important that when it's used in this context of trauma, we're understanding that ambivalence is not, I kind of want this, but I kind of want that. It's not partial desires. If I may use a theological concept of the natures of Christ, right? If you are a Christian, you've done any work around the theology of who is Jesus, he's 100% God, he's 100% man, right? And these early heresies that came along tried to take one and get rid of the other, like well, he's fully God, but only took the form of a man, or fully a man, but only had some godlike qualities inside, or whatever. And the truth is it's this mystery, right? And ambivalence is getting close to that. In other words, when you take one side by itself, it's a hundred percent. And when you take the other side, it has its own full force as well, and it seems completely separated from the other. And where this really comes out in the works of Dan Alander is around sexual abuse. And it's an important concept because as human beings that are embodied, when there has been physical touch, there is almost always gonna be some form of arousal, and yet there's also the shame and disgust of the abuse. Most victims will not name the arousal. That's just not a natural tendency, especially when you receive care, it's almost all gonna be around the harm done. But until someone can help join you on the other side with like what came up for you, with the complexities of harm mixed with arousal, you'll likely be stuck. But it feels so dangerous. And it feels dangerous because there is a lie that if I approach that, I will become that. If I approach the fact that even at the age of four, because I was receiving attention from grandpa or this person, I actually at times went to that person. To actually name that can feel so shameful that we bury it, but we bury with it so many things of desire and beauty. And so, what ambivalence is inviting us to is to name the realities of both without losing the other. If I name that, I'm not losing the fact that the abuser was 100% wrong. And that's so important. And I think in abuse, and this is one of the ways that Dan Allen are so brilliant, is he began to realize this does not just apply to overt sexual abuse, it applies to all of our traumas. That that when we move toward hard things, there's a part of us that says, if you go down this road, you will get lost or more confused. The lie is if I approach the parts of me that were aroused, then I'm going to become that. I'm going to be dirty. I'm going to get lost or misunderstood. I'm going to go down this kind of dark path. And so in the same way, in some of the examples you're giving, you know, if I stop and sit down with my therapist or a friend and really talk about hard things, I mean, like, here's something I'm learning in my story, in my life. Here's something I've experienced this week. There's a part of us that's saying, okay, if you want to do that, you're going to lose the other side of who you are.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

You're bringing up ambivalence in a way that has a positive feeling towards it. Where I've always thought ambivalence is negative, but you're saying actually we need to be able to hold the 100% this and the 100% that, because that's the most accurate full truth. And another way that I have witnessed what you were describing with the complexity of sexual abuse is there's been an abuse done, a real harm done. But I will watch people, they're right in the midst of naming it, and like, well, but I allowed it, or I didn't come up against it for all those years, or I didn't stop her, or I didn't like I can't hold fully that I was abused because I participated to some degree, or I didn't try hard enough to stop it. And I think I hear you saying, We have to hold a hundred percent I've been abused and a hundred percent I'm human. So at times I'm foolish and I'm capable of harming someone else. That's a fact. I'm a sinner, but we cannot use that fact to then diminish where harm has been done. That does not mean I deserve the abuse. And that's I think a real strength when we can name both, but a real fragility in people that don't want to really name a particular person that particularly harmed them because who are they to judge? They could do the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

Yeah, again, it's a very complex topic. There seems to be within the realm of even sexual abuse, there seems to be the two sides. There's one side that you're naming where it's like, well, because I felt complicit and I'm aware of that, then I'm gonna minimize the abuse itself and just simply say it wasn't ideal. Often we use the word grooming there. That what the therapist wants to help the person understand is okay, you may think you chose this, but because of of what grooming is, you need to see that someone had that evil had intentions and sought you out.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

And the weapon was not a fist, the weapon was your arousal. The weapon was I'm gonna get you to want this.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

It was your arousal and it was your it was your need. It was your need for attunement for care. That would be one-sided. The other side could be um, oh no, no, no, no. I don't I don't feel like I had any participation. No, this was all that person, it was all violent and one-sided. And that may be the case for some abuse stories. Okay. But but again, I have seen people who when they've done the work and they've really explored the trauma and abuse when grooming was involved and their own ambivalence, it's more harmful when someone who hears of it freshly only demonizes the abuser. Not because it's not true, remember the hundred percent, but rather because the reality is, and I mean, if there is one phrase that we can bring up from this work, is if you you know that which is not named will not be tamed. So why why do this work? Why do that? Work with ambivalence. Why name the fact that when that abuse happened, a part of my being came to life? Whether it was anything of a sexual nature or just being seen or being important or whatever. Why name that? Well, because if it's true, it still operates. And if it happened, and it it still resides and has power, and what can free us is naming it. And the reason we want to be freed is that it's marring a part of your glory.

SPEAKER_00 22:27

And so Okay, say that in a little bit different language, because that's not something that you hear every day. It's marring your glory.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Sure. I want to be very, very careful with just overly simplistic examples, but just thinking about sexuality, if a young woman or man was abused sexually in a way that they have no doubt that it was a the perpetrator was evil, but they haven't yet named the fact that there was something in them that came to life, then they are at war with desire. They're going to be at war with the fact that when those same things come to life in their present, they don't know how to handle them. And something will be amiss, usually. Either a shutting of it down or an over-expression of it or whatever. And cutting parts of us off is never going to be the answer. Or saying that's just who I am and letting it just run amok. The goal is to go to this place of harm and name it carefully, again, usually with a trusted guide who's done this work and grieve it. And in doing so, we can recapture the part of us that was banished in that. We've talked a lot about that in other contexts, but that's where ambivalence is important. So when the concept of, hey, there's ambivalence here comes up, it's like, good, we found something. We're moving into something.

istening Across Disagreement And Tribal Fear

SPEAKER_00 23:43

And I think when you just described marring your glory as banishing parts of yourself, as you were describing it, I thought about someone who is pretty resistant to this kind of nuance and is not able to listen. Like they have opinions, they have a lack of curiosity that if they even listened to your idea, they may be swayed. And so they won't even listen. Yes. And we've had a podcast episode on like how to be a better listener. But this is a very important under-the-surface reasoning why it's a strength and a glory when you can be in the presence of someone that would listen to you and they would be able to affirm what they can affirm, and they may still disagree, but you felt heard. And I think our world is lacking that drastically because we feel like we have to just claim a tribe and stay with it no matter what. And that gives us a sense of security versus saying, okay, for example, I appreciate this about this group or leader, and another aspect of this leader is really damaging. What do I do with that ambivalence? Or what do I do with that those two conflicting things?

SPEAKER_01 24:50

This is such a good topic. Can I jump in with you? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, first of all, you've touched on a pet peeve of mine that I'm also super guilty of. And that is, you know, it can be a theological or a political conversation, whatever. And there appears to be on the horizon something of a disagreement. Maybe you're debating or not. And I've had to talk to my children about this at times. I'm like, don't start off with, I disagree, because it implies, first of all, like that's what we're doing.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

It assumes an argument versus a curious conversation.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

Yeah, I want to understand you. And what I've often said is you can disagree without saying it. Just start to say your point, and it'll be obvious that it's different. But but before that, and again, I'm a hypocrite, I get it, but the goal is to treat the other person as they are made in the image of God, who is not crazy. And even if they are, that doesn't mean I shouldn't listen to them. And I'm going to take in their information and I can process it. And quite frankly, I may not say anything back this conversation. I may just say that's really good insight. I want to chew on that for a little bit. And I'm not going to die.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

That's the strength that I don't think most people have because they aren't willing to go into the different states of minds. It's almost like I have to stay in a state, and this may be theologically where you stand or politically where you've landed or whatever decision you've made. I can't even hear anyone else because I I am scared that I may be swayed.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

Yeah, there's a lot of things that kind of come up for me in that, like loyalty structures. Like if I listen to your side, I'm crossing loyalty lines, you know, that kind of thing. But to your point, and what we're really talking about here is this almost fear, even terror, that what if a part of me agrees with you? Let's just use the super basic trope of the Democrats and Republicans, because both positions said by the right person should be appealing. And we have to name that, right? Like anybody that would listen to the best of one side and go, absolutely nothing in that makes any sense to me. Something's off. You have to be able to go, time out, though that's not my worldview fully, or though I don't agree. There has to be some ability to go, but I see what they're after, I see why they're saying it. And what you'll find is you hear this now, it's called ad hominem. You know, you don't attack their argument, you talk the person. You know, they're dumb. And one of the common ones now is like, oh, they probably learned that from a bot, or it's confirmation bias.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

They watch in AI video they don't have a mind of their own, they're just reading their feed or saying absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

And both and both sides will say that if someone's speaking truth, it does not matter where they learned it. But to say, oh, they learned that from a bot is is laziness because it's like, well, first of all, your job is to prove how what they're saying is wrong. That's the key.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

Or just interact with the person's feelings. Why is it so hard for some people to lean into other people's emotions or other people's thoughts or opinions? Why is it difficult for them to pause and empathize?

SPEAKER_01 27:50

Okay, that's a really good question. And I think it's important because how we handle an external situation, conflict discussion probably mirrors very much how we handle the internal ones as well. So, in other words, if we just are super dogmatic and whatever with external situations, we're probably doing that to ourselves. But my thought would be uh it's like when you're in a conversation or argument, you can often feel like the person is trying to go a certain direction. And they might even ask you a couple of peppered questions to kind of set you up, and you can feel it in your body, like if I answer this this way, we're going that way. And what you feel is if I'm curious, I'm gonna be taken on a ride. I'm gonna get sucked in, right?

SPEAKER_00 28:32

Yeah, or consumed, like they're gonna sway me.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

They're gonna sway me or whatever. Well, it feels like to me, that's what we're doing internally. So, you know, if we're if we're in a position where we can step into a place of pause or sit down with our therapist or just journal, but we feel resistance, it's because similarly, I think there's a fear. Like, hey, things are going good right now. Like, I'm kind of firing in all cylinders, we haven't had any arguments, whatever. I kind of want to ride that wave, just kind of avoid any real introspection until a real problem hits. And I I've had that even in my journaling. Like, I'll get up and there will be a day that I feel raw and deep. And then the next day, it happens all the time. It's like I'm talking about time management stuff or goals, like super surface level things. I'm not saying those aren't important, but it almost feels like I'm afraid to live in that place where I'm coming up against my deeper states and the wounds and the ambivalence, all those things. It just feels safer to choose a state of polish or survival for the moment.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

See, I thought you were gonna say it's good. Like that's different states of feeling. One day was really hard and heavy, and the next day it was a little bit more goal setting. Like I would hope that we could write in our thankful journal or we could write things that were hard in a journal. There's different states.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

Well, you wouldn't pick up your thankful journal and make a grocery list.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

But you're saying because it was your journal, that's kind of the space that you were gonna be reflecting.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

I have noticed there are times where I've set the time up. It's the space, yes, before work. Oh, okay. And I just kind of felt like I don't I don't want to get sad right now.

ractical Pauses And A Good Samaritan Lens

SPEAKER_00 30:08

Yeah, you I don't want to be reflective. Yeah. Well, I think I think we're naming that there's just a lot of resistance to wanting to feel, and we may have a really strong feeling after an incident happens, and then once it's kind of passed, we want to just hope it never comes up again. But do we have anything practical as we talk through like how do we get better at shifting through our states?

SPEAKER_01 30:27

Yeah, I think for me, and this is what I've noticed in this work is often the applications is the same. You are not a robot, you are a human, and God has made you with all sorts of faculties and states of mind. And Paul calls it our members, you know, and at times we're to be focused on business, seriousness of a meeting, and other times romantic or playful or all these things. And we're wanting to cultivate those. But one of the ways we do that is recognizing when we're up against sort of a barrier within, just noticing, like I don't want to be playful right now, or I don't want to go into the house and get like that, or I'm still carrying whatever. Noticing that is so powerful. And that's where you said pause. Like it's not fixing, it's just being aware of and noticing and praying in those moments, especially to say, like, I want to show up what's best in this environment and let go. And here's another one. If I let go of that problem at work, the fear or the lie might be it'll haunt me. But it's like, no, I can let that one go. Maybe I jotted it down. And then at another time, when it's the right moment, I'll come back to that one. You know, but right now I'm gonna go in and I'm gonna play with the kids or start cooking dinner or whatever I'm gonna do. I think that's the goal. The goal is can you name the fact that you have many different states of being and you have ambivalence, which means seemingly disparate or conflicting feelings or places around a singular topic or event?

SPEAKER_00 31:57

I think my practical takeaway is we need to know our stories. It's that simple in that if we're gonna be someone that's incapable or unwilling to face the world's harsh and the world's beautiful terrains and be able to actually have mountaintop experiences and also be in a season in the desert. And if we can't experience both, then that's a weakness and there's a reason that certain terrains make us terrified. I don't want to see my daughter's tears, or I cannot handle that man's harshness, whatever it may be. And so if if we have spent our whole lives being nervous of certain types of feelings, certain types of arousals, certain domains of the mind, then we're really the weak one. And I think we're saying, let's become strong and that we can notice the human emotions, the right responses to the harshness and the sadnesses of this world, but also the joys and the excitements and the fun. Can we have both? Can we be lighthearted? Can we be the friend that just talks about hilarious small talk? And can we be the friend that talks deep? Or are we just stuck in one lane?

ecoming Whole As Followers Of Christ

SPEAKER_01 33:03

Oh, I love that. A story from scripture that's come to mind as we've talked is probably one of the more popular parables of the Good Samaritan. The their lawyer asks Jesus, what's the law? Jesus says, Love your neighbor, you know. Well, who's my neighbor? And he tells a story. And the essence of the story is there's a man who's in major need, and he's a Jewish man, and two different people who you would think from that culture would want to tend to him avoid him. And in some ways, they had quote unquote good reasons, the ceremonial laws, what they were going to do. But the Samaritan, who in that day and age was considered not like a brother, he's the one who came along, and his day was interrupted, and he decided to care for him. If you track what he does, he takes him to what would be the equivalent of a hospital and provides financially and will come back and check. But he also goes back to work. I mean, he goes on his day, he doesn't just change his whole life. So there's something of he knew this interruption is not gonna like change the course of my vocation forever. But at the same time, the situation is such that I really, to be fully human, want to tend and care for this person. And I think what Jesus is saying there is you love all humans, right? But what he's inviting us to is when we live in this world, we're gonna come up against so many places where our state needs to shift. Otherwise, we can be super rigid. And as we heal and do our story work as you just shared, we'll be more apt and ready in those moments to be fully human and in the correct state, even if things are coming up for us, even if there's certain elements of resistance we can plug ahead. And that's really the goal, I think.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

Yeah, in conclusion, as a follower of Christ, if you are uncomfortable with any aspect of being in this world, pay attention because we see this, and I think many of us have been harmed by it. The people that say, I'm only a teacher of the word, I'm only a discipler. Like I'm super uncomfortable with caring for people's physical needs or emotional needs, or vice versa. I do humanitarian work. I do not want to get into theological debates. I just believe the Bible, and I'm just a simple-minded person. You know, but it's like both are so resistant to holding something about the other. There's a reason for that. Let's find out so that we can be stronger in our communities, being able to hold the ambivalence and the nuance and the multiple emotions that we have as a human.