Story Matters Podcast
In the Story Matters Podcast, Hosts Ryan and Emily Baker discuss the intersection between theology and psychology helping listeners to better grasp how their particular stories have shaped them.
Story Matters Podcast
41.Bonus Re-Release "The Holidays" When Longing For Home Meets The Ache Of Reality
In Season 1 we had a conversation the week of Thanksgiving that we want to share again as we conclude Season 3. Holiday tables can be warm, funny, and deeply desired—and they can also be minefields of subtle jabs, old roles, and unspoken rules. We name the ache beneath nostalgia and share a grounded, faith-based way to move from autopilot to awareness so you can keep your peace without losing yourself.
Using Dan Siegel’s flashlight metaphor, we show how to shift your focus intentionally, notice what sits at the edge of awareness, and choose responses that fit your values. The goal isn’t a flawless holiday; it’s an honest and hopeful one.
If this conversation helps you breathe a little easier heading into the season, share it with a friend, subscribe for more story-wise episodes, and leave a review to help others find the show.
We are forming Story Groups that will begin in January 2026, all the information is on our website StoryMattersCoaching.com or email us with any questions!
Welcome to the Story Matters Podcast. I'm Ryan Baker.
SPEAKER_00:And I'm Emily Baker.
SPEAKER_01:We believe people grow and heal through understanding how our stories are rooted in God's redemptive story.
SPEAKER_00:We hope our conversations encourage you to engage your story and the world around you with a new lens.
SPEAKER_01:We're glad you're here. So welcome back to the podcast. This episode is going to be a special episode because we're going to focus on the holidays. And we really want to just say, okay, what does it mean to hunger and thirst for righteousness for shalom? And I'm entering the space of a gathering, especially around anybody that's been around me when I was younger. The holidays are fraught with opportunity for hungering and thirsting, not for the wonderful, delicious food, but ripeness. And we're going to feel a lot of tension in our bodies. And so in this episode, we're going to talk about what does it mean to pay attention in these places where much more warfare is going on than we are usually willing to name.
SPEAKER_00:As we're thinking about wrapping up season one, we realize it's Thanksgiving week. Who knows whenever you're going to land on this episode? But we find it important to address the holidays. The holidays, whether it's Thanksgiving or Christmas, or even if you're in another country listening and there's local festivities and holidays, it's the pressure that our culture and our history and our families put on a holiday that we want to address. We have been talking about seeing our stories, our families, and our lives with a new lens. And when you do have that new lens, often it can be a little unsettling, disruptive.
SPEAKER_01:One of the times that we can drift back into some earlier place emotionally or into some system is at holidays. We can find ourselves all of a sudden, though we're in our 46-year-old body or 54-32-year-old body, our emotional place might all of a sudden be a teenager or preteen. And again, it's very subtle, but what we want to talk about in this episode is super practically how can we, in the midst of these moments, pay attention?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think there's a a spectrum of responses to holidays in general. I mean, from ignoring them, not decorating, not doing anything, all the way to the other side to almost killing yourself to create that Hallmark movie or, you know, Norman Rockwell scene. And we just would really love to fight against what I've at times called a demonic force in our culture that says you have to have it a certain way or you're not good enough. Like what what's wrong with you that you didn't have a certain setting for your Thanksgiving meal or a certain amount of people that you gathered with?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and the setup for this is that all of us have a longing for home. The word nostalgia we've talked about before. Um, but it finds its root in two different Greek words, nostos meaning to return home, and algos meaning pain or grief or distress. And so its early uses show up uh in the English at a time of war with soldiers longing for home. And you had a recognition that that longing may not always be a real legitimate home. And I think as you and I've discussed, you know, the holidays, everybody who wants it, even if you're, you know, wherever you are in the spectrum, Emily, that you just named, um we long. You know, Christmas movies, Christmas music, Thanksgiving, these all on some level spark in us a desire. But what we want to address is the grief and the distress because it's there and it needs to be named.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and we've even seen as we've been raising teenagers, especially our girls, they get caught up in this idea that there is something of perfection that you can reach, or there is a feeling, you know, the Christmas morning feeling. And it's been interesting to be a parent and watch each age group kind of enjoy and then kind of grieve and then kind of reason and cope with that there isn't a time and place on this earth that can be perfect and last. And so there's even like a death of that moment of like Christmas morning's over, you know, and so nostalgia. I love the way you describe that, like a longing for home, but it's a it's an ache in our heart.
SPEAKER_01:And as we think about the distress, I think what we wanted to do in this episode is be really practical and give a few tools we'll get to in a few minutes, on what we would like to see you all try, and what we'll try as as we engage places where we desperately want the warmth of home, the welcome of home, and yet we find the distress, the grief. And here's what we mean Kurt Thompson has a great chapter in it in his book, The Anatomy of the Soul, on paying attention to what you're paying attention to. But if you are familiar with Dr. Dan Siegel, um all of his material really runs through mindsight and other books, awareness. This is picking up on the awareness idea that we really do pay attention. We have an attention on something. He compares it to like a flashlight. So if you're getting up in the evening, middle of the night, and you're gonna make your way across part of a house, or for some crazy reason outside, you you'll turn your flashlight on. Maybe you grab your phone and you turn the flashlight on and you make your way through the house. Now, everything in the sight of the light is your focal attention. It's what you're focused on and you can see it. But he goes on to discuss what about the things outside of the light? Maybe you can just sense something's on the floor. It's not quite in the beam, but you you move the beam over, and it indeed there is a pair of shoes or something you would have tripped over. This would be your non-focal awareness. These are the things that are in awareness, but they're not in your direct consciousness at the moment. Now, that's a metaphor for how we might go through a day or our life. And what he's contrasting, Dan Siegel's contrasting, is awareness versus autopilot. And I don't know if you're like me, I've ended up places in my car like work or for an errand, and I didn't even think about how I got there. Have you ever done that?
SPEAKER_00:No, for sure. Which is great. I mean, you you want that neuropathway to be well worn, but yeah, sometimes it's a little scary.
SPEAKER_01:It's possible to go into autopilot, for example, during a holiday gathering, and just sort of drift through the meal or the time, smiling, pleasantries, and all the while there could be harmful things being said that we're just metabolizing and moving on.
SPEAKER_00:Aaron Powell Yeah. Fawn's the least talked about, and yet that's I think what you're describing. The four F's of trauma fight, flight, freeze, fawn. Would you say you're describing fawn?
SPEAKER_01:I think so. I think it's fawn, but I actually might just say if it's even noticed.
SPEAKER_00:And and I say that because like You don't think I'm dysregulated and I'm just gonna fawn. You're just doing it. You're just going with it.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Because it's in those situations, I think that usually it's a new spouse or a new boyfriend or girlfriend. Fresh eyes to question what I think you're describing as probably dysfunctional behavior that has become so normal that we don't notice it when it's our own family. Is that what you're saying?
SPEAKER_01:I think so. I I knew someone in the past whose new fiance was able to name there's a lot of comments about physique in this family or something like that. And so what that, you know, is that sin or dysfunction? Maybe. But the point is the person is like, wait, what?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think there's a lot of things our families do that would be more like what John Eldridge has called ways. You know, like that's just the way we do things. That's not necessarily dysfunctional. But if we are in a system in our own family of origin that keeps us stuck and young and frustrated, and we've never really known why, sometimes it's those fresh eyes, those people that come in that say, Wow, you know, your dad's really checked out or your mom's really passive aggressive at times. I mean, obviously that's going to be a spouse that would have the confidence to say something like that, but it is helpful. So as you're maybe engaging your story, maybe you're just dabbling by listening to this podcast, or maybe you are new in a relationship and experiencing these things that we're talking about. Anytime we're newly aware of a dynamic, it can be disruptive. And I think we're wanting to help you, as our listeners, to go, okay, what do I do with all this?
SPEAKER_01:A great question might be why would we do that? Like of all the times to not pay attention, isn't it the holidays? Isn't that why alcohol sales is at an all-time high, et cetera? But what we're suggesting is, and this is the truth behind every podcast we're we're doing, is that if there is something harmful and it's not paid attention to, named, and engaged on some level, whether in real time or or later in your journal, through prayer with a counselor, however, if it's just going underneath the surface to the point of not even being noticed, it's gonna do damage.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I can tell you that if we'll pay attention even for a moment to our bodies, our lower back pain, our IBS may flare up, our breath is short, we get more anxious. Why do I have an anxiety attack every November? If we can pay attention to our bodies, I think that's a reason. I mean, don't you want to know Well, I think it's hilarious.
SPEAKER_01:So we just play basketball with our daughter's team. You and I, they invited the parents to play against our eighth-grade daughter's team just for fun. And I took two different falls, no big deal, got rolled around, got back up, you know, kind of hilarious. Ha ha ha.
SPEAKER_00:And you said to me In three days when you think you have back cancer, I'm gonna remind you that you you went rolling on the floor. Yes.
SPEAKER_01:And so I think we're asking you, listeners, oh, right. A week after Thanksgiving or the week of Thanksgiving or holidays when you're like, Why am I exhausted?
SPEAKER_00:Why do I have a migraine?
SPEAKER_01:Or or why am I irritated? It can be things you're aware of and you know, like emotions, irritated.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I was at Thanksgiving with Fill in the Blink and they made this comment about Fill in the Blink. Right. Yeah, we're gonna do that. Yes, so why do we do why are we even having this episode? We're saying we think it's important to know what your story is, what's playing into it. And so that when we do story work, it it isn't only our past, obviously. We're doing this work so that we can know what's happening currently in our lives, what activates us, what dysregulates us.
SPEAKER_01:And in this podcast series, what we're trying to help you understand is that evil is assaulting you through your story, through events, through words said to you, through systems. And so when you come to the holidays, because it is so rich of a time for family, it could it has that potential for joy. All the things it's supposed to be, it's therefore, I think, a time where evil is definitely trying to figure out how to break things up, how to make you hate, how to make you hurt. And I think we all have some sense of that. We're just not sure what to do with it. And our goal in this episode is to be very simple with just a few items we're gonna ask you to do almost playfully and see if this begins to help you notice how your awareness or your attention is being paid. Where are you paying it? Where are you spinning your focus? Are you living on autopilot or are you present in the moment? I I think just this is one example, but we all are familiar with the concept of passive aggressive comments. And it's really stunning because a passive aggressive comment has all of the power of an aggressive comment, but it's simply time-released in some way.
SPEAKER_00:It's it's it has more power because it's passive. It's subtle.
SPEAKER_01:You don't notice it's well in my life, there has been a comment made to me in the past, somewhat repeatedly, where when I would finally see an individual, the person would give me a hug, huge smile, and just say, We haven't seen you in a while. Where have you been? Where have you been? Of course, in that moment, it's this, you know, I return it with a smile and ha ha, busy. But what I want to name is I think any one of our listeners can agree, like what this person is saying is you are not fulfilling your obligation to see me or us on a regular interval. But what happens is in the moment I you use the word fawn, I think it's fawn. My body knows something's wrong, but I don't know what it is, and I'm leaning in for the hug, and of course, want to return kindness and we smile and go on about other comments with other people. But it took me a long time, and maybe many of you, some of you may have a master's degree by now in passive aggression, like a PA, a passive aggressive, like you know it, you have a family member who does it, but but I want to remind us this is just one example.
SPEAKER_00:And so with that, I think you're saying that your body is aware, but what do you do with that?
SPEAKER_01:Number one, you we need to note that it happened. Like in a perfect world, I could hit pause, everybody would freeze frame, or I could stop and write it down and on a note and then hit play and we go back to our life. Practically, here's what I would say, especially if you're at a holiday event, somewhere there's a gathering, something is said that triggers you. And when you use that word, it kind of upsets you about you, about the election, about anything. One really great strategy is go to the restroom. Just maybe not instantaneously, but go to the bathroom, close the door, you know, no one's gonna bother you. Have a few moments to collect yourself. And I would say there, and maybe you could speak more to the grounding, but I would also take out your phone or any kind of writing, but phone has notes.
SPEAKER_00:And dissociate on reels?
SPEAKER_01:No, certainly not. Uh just because you can't have the volume up in there. I don't want to hear the volume. Um No, you you you open the notes and just note what happened.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Nothing long, not a book, just make a note. Okay. Now don't listen, don't do 28 of these. But just my point would be learn to pay attention in real time or close near the time. It may be it may take you 20 minutes, and you kind of start to go, why am I agitated? Oh my gosh. Oh, oh, when I came in, that comment, you know. But the point is at some point, sooner than the night gets away from you, write it down. That's step one.
SPEAKER_00:We just did an episode on window of tolerance, and I don't know that it's even realistic just to say, hey, let's all just stay regulated in our window of tolerance all during the holidays or on Thanksgiving Day. But can you pay attention to what knocks you out? What are the invitations to go dissociate? What are the invitations to your body to go power up and yell at someone? We are not wanting you to be disruptive. We don't think that's the healthy reaction. We're asking for all of us, and we're in this with you, can you pay attention to little subtle comments or little things that happen that make you feel agitated? Can you pull away and take note of it? Take a deep breath, get back in your window of tolerance and re-enter so that it does keep the peace for that day.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. And the second thing you would do then, and this would come later, after the night is over or the event, and you're somewhere in a quiet time or a place where you can process, pull out the note, pull out one of them, and just look it over. And what you would do now is you're observing, you're observing the situation. And I do want to say something about observation that is on this wavelength, but becoming an observer means, and this is something the gospel actually frees us to do. When you see Jesus so often, where others have become activated, he seems to be completely present in his body.
SPEAKER_00:And Jesus is so confident, even in the face of gaslighting. I've I've seen so many scenarios where the Pharisees are gaslighting him, and he it's similar to what you said a couple episodes ago about knowing who he was, knowing why he came, knowing whose he was. It's this, it's the sense of, I know who I am, so you're not gonna knock me off, like you're not gonna dysregulate me. He had that real strong presence. And so I think in this step two that you're saying to do is as we go back and look at these little moments that we maybe jotted down. Like here's what I can imagine for you, for example. So you walk in, you see this older person at the a generation above you who hugs you and says, Where have you been? It irritates you, you know, you you go with it. You you smile, you hug back, nothing happens. But what you can do is you can recognize that person made me feel like that person was blaming me for really the divorce way back. Like as if it's my responsibility to keep that person in the family. And it's not. But there's a confidence that can come with naming, no, that's not my guilt to carry, that's not my shame to carry. I can forgive that person. I'm thankful I didn't jab back, but that's why it hurt, and I was not crazy to be dysregulated by that.
SPEAKER_01:And the third thing then is engaging. And now when I say the word engaging, I don't mean that you're gonna necessarily in that moment engage the person, though it's possible and though it certainly should be done more than it is. Um, you know, a kind response if you have the capability in the moment. But what we mean by engaging is later when you're able, you're regulated, you're away from the situation. It's really helpful to go back to the note and to the naming and ask why is this bringing up such emotion? Like what is it in my story that this either feels familiar to or it's exposing? And that gives you room to do some work around that particular place.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and then you can decide is this a person that could be open to a conversation where I could share my feelings and there could be a pretty good repair so that it doesn't happen again, right? And you may find yourself in a relationship with people that you see during the holidays that you know you can't say certain things. But again, during this third stage of engaging it, you get to have the freedom to decide if you want to be around that person. You may say, Oh, no, no, no, I have to always see that person at Christmas. Okay, who says? You know, and okay, then do you want to engage that person differently than letting that person berade you in a passive aggressive way at the dinner table? Right. But if we get to that third phase, we have so much more freedom to navigate what we're doing with our lives. I I will never forget walking up to Dan Alender after a lecture several years ago, and it was coming up on Thanksgiving, and I quickly gave him the scenario of what we were facing. I wanted him to have that clarity, and he said, What do you want to do? You get to do whatever you want to do. And it was frustrating to me at the time because I didn't at that place in my life have the freedom to think, oh, I I could choose.
SPEAKER_01:And so what we're what you're saying and what we're getting at is you're returning to the place of agency if you've noted it and named it, and you've engaged why it's coming up for you, why it's such a strong thing. Now in the Lord, you're squarely in the place where you can prayerfully with wisdom choose what's the best outcome.
SPEAKER_00:If you spend even ten minutes journaling or praying or thinking through what are we going into this coming week or this weekend or whatever that you're anticipating as a holiday or a get together, you know. Your body knows. It's that like, why are you downcast? Oh my soul, why are you in turmoil within me? You can you could say, What are we about to walk into? Your body holds all the memory. You're going to face the stories that get repeated in your family, and one of them really bothers you, or the the jokes. You know what jokes are coming. Can you be prepared?
SPEAKER_01:Earlier, you you had mentioned, you know, when someone comes into the family new, often they're the ones that point it out, and it's almost like you just tread it on sacred ground. Like, dad gets to make fun of me, or mom gets to comment on my whatever.
SPEAKER_00:It is astounding how many clients I have that will come to me because their husband or wife has noticed something about their family or like a parent, like they do not see it. And it's like, oh, you really don't you can't see it in your childhood for one thing. You gotta get through, you know, you gotta recraft the narrative.
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's not only they can't see it, because if that's all it was when you named it, they'd be like, Oh my gosh, I'm changing this right now.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah. No, it's there's a commitment. You hear the person how we do things.
SPEAKER_01:I would never say that to them.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, or could you I even mentioned, like, could you say, How about this one? Mom makes a comment about your body, your dress, whatever it may be. Can you just say, ouch? You know, I heard that as a really good piece of advice on a podcast I listened to this week. Can you just say ouch? It doesn't accuse someone right there, listener.
SPEAKER_01:This is a great spot to go. Okay. What are the things I can't say?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, because the person I said it to said, No, I could never say that.
SPEAKER_01:They would crumble. And that's the question is what do you feel in your body the second you imagine maybe saying that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. This is the pre-work. Pre-work going into any holiday or weekend with a family gathering where you may be around people that you have not experienced to do rupture and repair. You may have experienced to be wonderful, but with a little edge that there's a side of them you don't want to cross. The invitation that we're giving you is can you be an observer and not use what is your go-to? Whether that's fawn or a fight back or a quick comment, can you pause, stay in your window of tolerance, and just observe. Bring it home and do the work.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks again for joining us today. If you have questions or thoughts about our conversation, we'd love to hear from you. We can be reached through our website at story matters initiative.com. And from there you can also find our Instagram and our Facebook. If you are interested in doing individual or group work, we'd love to discuss that with you as well.