Story Matters Podcast
In the Story Matters Podcast, Hosts Ryan and Emily Baker discuss the intersection between theology and psychology helping listeners to better grasp how their particular stories have shaped them.
Story Matters Podcast
32. Ten Ways to be a Better Listener
Genuine listening has become a rare art. In this episode, Ryan and Emily Baker break down ten practical strategies that transform ordinary conversations into sacred encounters. Whether one-on-one with a friend or in a small group, deep listening builds safe spaces for people to feel known and loved. In a polarized and sound-bite world, we hope this discussion will inspire and equip people to live an un-hurried life ready to engage topics that matter to their fellow-man.
From honoring the sacredness of what others share to recognizing our own biases and resistances, each tip builds toward a revolutionary approach to human connection.
We delve into game-changing concepts like the "Three Sigh Rule," which suggests waiting through three natural pauses in conversation before responding – often allowing people to process their own thoughts more completely. We explore how to listen for understanding rather than formulating replies, how to notice nonverbal cues that speak volumes, and how to offer empathy without rushing to solutions.
Perhaps most powerfully, the Bakers remind us that "listening to someone is the most humanizing thing we can do." In a culture that often fragments and isolates us, the simple act of attentive listening affirms another's dignity and worth. It helps people "feel felt," remain calm, and make connections they might not otherwise discover.
These are the places relationships are built or broken, and listening actively and with care is one of the most important things we can do, I think, in seeking the healing of others and developing friendships. Welcome to the Story Matters Podcast. I'm Ryan Baker.
Speaker 2:And I'm Emily Baker.
Speaker 1:We believe people grow and heal through understanding how our stories are rooted in God's redemptive story.
Speaker 2:We hope our conversations encourage you to engage your story and the world around you with a new lens.
Speaker 1:We're glad you're here.
Speaker 2:Whether you're having coffee with a friend or you're in a small group, like a story group or a Bible study, or you're parenting teenagers that want to talk about current events. We think this is a very practical topic to dive into, to talk about how to be a really good listener, how to be a better listener.
Speaker 1:One of the things that can often be missing in healthy communities is the person who values deep listening.
Speaker 2:And with deep listening comes a humility and the body regulation to hear something that you may disagree with, but yet you stay curious in the face of it and care more for the person than winning an argument. And in our culture today we're noticing that there's a lot of talking and a very small amount of listening.
Speaker 1:And as we begin this episode, it may be a good idea to just ask yourself, like, how do you rate yourself in listening? Like, are you a good listener? Would people refer to you as that?
Speaker 2:That would be. The litmus test is to ask your three most honest friends to rank you.
Speaker 1:And then don't listen to their answer. The next thought might just be to kind of juxtapose your thinking or answering that question with who in your life was the best listener, and not necessarily like who consistently cared about you, but like was there a per? I have a person in my mind. I didn't see a whole lot. It was a mother of my brother's friend, but whenever she entered the picture she looked me in the eyes in a very kind way and asked really great questions and leaned in and I felt heard and seen. So again, I wouldn't call her one of the most important people in my life, but she's definitely in the top percent of best listeners.
Speaker 2:That's so cool that you still remember that, okay, so, if you all are familiar with the Myers-Briggs, ryan and I did that test and studied it in seminary when he was there over 20 years ago, and I am a very extreme J and he's a very extreme P. If you know what that means, great. If you don't, it's okay. But this is going to be one of those moments where I want to get really J and say let's do a 10 tips for being a good listener. And that's not his style. He's a big picture thinker, obviously. You guys probably know that from listening and I appreciate that. And he appreciates my list of to-dos to keep us on task right.
Speaker 1:I do.
Speaker 2:So this is a very different style of episode, but we thought it might be really helpful In a world gone mad where current events can throw us all into a social media frenzy, watching the news more than ever, all kind of screaming our opinions. You know, one of my favorite quotes is Paul Harvey. It actually is a little Mary Engelbright picture in our kitchen and it says in times like these, it's always good to remember. There have always been times like these, and so I think he got that from Ecclesiastes.
Speaker 2:Probably so, but it just sounds a little bit more fun. Ok, we're going to dive in, but before we do and these are going to be like our top 10 tips, but, ryan, before we dive in I'm going to give you a Myers-Briggs P moment. What's the benefit, or what is the philosophy around why we should be a good listener? What's the value in?
Speaker 1:it.
Speaker 1:Well it's a great question, and what comes to my mind first of all is the law of love, Like we're supposed to be, not only fueled by the love of Christ, but to love others is to deeply care about what they're sharing and what they're saying. To love others is to deeply care about what they're sharing and what they're saying, and I think that's really hard in our world, in our fast-paced world, Depending on the situation. There are moments you've referenced a few where we go in knowing we're going to have a time to listen and speak. Often, though, in those moments, if we're honest, we think I hope I get to share, I hope I get to say things. Rarely do we go into moments thinking I hope I get to listen. I hope I get to say things? Rarely do we go into moments thinking I hope I get to listen, I hope I get to really pay attention to what they're saying and empathize.
Speaker 1:I think the value is feeling felt. We talk a lot about these things. We're born into the world looking for someone, looking for us, and that would also be listening to us and feeling felt and feeling able to express ourselves. If I could just say one more thing, I think you're going to get to this, but I think often we don't know like there's a really famous line from a writer on writing that says I don't know what I think until I see what I say. And he's talking about writing the first draft and seeing it before really getting it. But sometimes we're feeling things and we need to put into words for a few moments and an empathetic listener provides the kind of the canvas for us to express ourselves and go ah, that's what I was trying to say that's so good, it's interesting.
Speaker 2:Just now you said put into words and I find myself, when I'm working with clients, I'll often say can you put more words to that, or can you put into words what that sigh was about? Can you put more words to that, or can you put into words what that sigh was about, instead of the word explain? Because sometimes when I hear we explain, I feel a little bit like I'm on the defense, you know, like they don't understand me, and then I already kind of have that shame feeling.
Speaker 1:I have a similar phrase. I learned from a good friend who always says it to me and when he's curious and he says, say more. And it just makes me want to lean in and keep going. It's like okay sure, okay.
Speaker 2:So some of these we may have a lot to say about. Some of these we might go uh-huh, that was good, move on. Next one, and some of them may feel redundant, but these are our top 10 tips for being a good listener. Number one honor the sacredness of what they have to say. In other words, honor the sacredness of their story and give it your full attention.
Speaker 1:Thoughts Well, for me, the first place would be a foundation of safety. We talk a lot about that in our podcast. Am I safe? Am I loved? Can I learn? I think sometimes there's a dance in a conversation and a sort of intimacy. It's sort of who's saying what? Where am I going? It's unsure. That's part of the challenge how long is this going to be? And then, of course, in the case where a person is sharing deeper things, you as the listener are going to feel, and so I think one of the first important things is to feel secure in who you are. Can I sit here, comfortable in my own skin, letting the other person share to the fullest?
Speaker 2:That's really good and, as you said that, it made me think about how important it is to not be distracted. But even more than not being distracted, I think what you just hinted at is that we don't always know when we're going to get into a conversation. It could be getting the mail at the mailbox with our neighbor. Know when we're going to get into a conversation. It could be getting the mail at the mailbox with our neighbor. It could be in any situation.
Speaker 2:And one of the things that was named about our new daughter-in-law at the rehearsal dinner and a lot of her friends were toasting her is that she lives an unhurried life and we have absolutely experienced that with her and that was such a well said characteristic about her because at any given moment it seems as though she's ready to listen, not really knowing is this going to be a deep conversation or just a conversation in passing, but she's tuned and ready. If you were to say something important she would lean in. This first point is saying live an unhurried, undistracted life so that you could make someone feel the sacredness of whatever they have to say.
Speaker 1:So I want to offer a side like a letter B to that idea Okay.
Speaker 1:In other words, if I take your idea, it's a great one and it's almost like I just I'm walking through this world and someone wants to have a deep conversation and next thing I know I need to sit down and get. There are boundaries. I mean, there is containment, yes, and there is something of containment or a boundary that says I would love to be able to hear this. I'm going to probably need to figure out a better time. So in other words, we do have agency around when location, in other words, we're not just trapped by the person's desire. So I would just say part of honoring the sacredness is as much as possible on the front end of honoring the sacredness is as much as possible on the front end. I remember hearing one friend say you know, whenever someone would ask her to talk, she might say, yes, I would love to ask you, kind of what it's in reference to.
Speaker 2:And it was a little bit like some people love when you said, the friend would say can we get together to talk?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Can we get together? I'd like to talk to you. We almost feel like, well, I better not say anything, I've just got to show up and be ready. Maybe she's going to confront me. Well, it's just a really great way to set the plate of. I am all in. This is sacred, but I just would love to have a little bit of a sense of what we're moving toward.
Speaker 2:I love that. Such a good point. I had that a lot as a pastor's wife and I think you had told me that years ago and it really helped actually create a more sacred space, Like I'm not blindly getting in to a conversation and then get dysregulated because I didn't know what it was about. Such a good point. Okay, See, thank you that. I'm bringing this quick little list of 10 things but you're going to expound. Okay, Number two, be curious, which I always love to go. Well, what's the opposite?
Speaker 2:It's finishing sentences finish each other's sandwiches sentences no, that's from frozen. Oh, I didn't get that.
Speaker 1:Well, what I mean, you know, like, yeah, like what's opposite of curiosity is I know where you're going, let me tell you where you're going, let me get there ahead of you and tell you how you could have gotten there faster.
Speaker 2:Yeah I have noticed this the most, being a parent of teenagers and 20-somethings that something will hit social media. You know it's the hot topic of the day of the month or the big event, and everybody wants to form an opinion as quickly as they can, to get on a side, because we live in a polarized world right now and they seem to communicate a nervousness to stay in a curious, like we would say, nuance. Just come on, hang out with me. What about? What would it feel like to be the other person that thinks differently? And I sense a resistance sometimes that I'm constantly saying to stay curious, it doesn't mean you can't form an opinion, but can you at least let the person be heard?
Speaker 1:Yeah, this feels like we're building almost a trajectory, but if you feel safe and you can acknowledge the other person is made in the image of God and is bringing sacredness, no matter who they are, and you've set the space where you can actually show up and listen.
Speaker 1:Staying curious is being aware of the ways our own body, our own tension. Being aware of the ways our own body, our own tension, even our limbic system some of our alarms can go off. We can feel anxious, we don't want to wander off on certain places. I would kind of put it in the category of creativity, or like brainstorming. Like do I have the capacity to stay safe and comfortable with who I am while venturing with another person into topics or places that may make me feel uncomfortable but in reality, are not wrong to let them speak about, Whether it's another religion, another political view, just some struggles they're having? Like can I not fall back into sort of cookie cutter, prefab responses that we all have, because those have been developed to keep us falsely safe, Like those have been developed over the years for us to be protected from hard things, like hard conversations?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so good. Okay, number three recognize your biases.
Speaker 1:That was the cookie cutter, I think Okay say more. Yeah, we all know what a bias is and many of our biases are explicit. We could put them on a piece of paper. But there's a lot of implicit biases, things that we just lean toward, and we can become very uncomfortable when a person is speaking and doesn't fall in line with where our biases are Gender, sexuality. You just pick your topic.
Speaker 2:Even their accent and the way they talk. I mean it's almost like does anyone good come out of Nazareth? We still have those places in our minds that are yeah or okay.
Speaker 1:So you just mentioned accent. Also speed Some people speak slowly and they think slowly. You know they speak faster. I do both. We've been around people who do those, yeah, so In other speak fashion. I do both. We've been around people who do those, yeah. So what are your biases? Right?
Speaker 2:What are the things you which is super humbling to even say you have a bias. I think I don't want to believe I have any biases. Is that fair?
Speaker 1:No, absolutely. I've run into certain people who assume they have zero. It's like oh, I come with completely an open mind and I'm ready to fully listen and engage in this topic with intellectual curiosity. But the problem with that is it's just not true. That's just human nature. First of all, we all do have opinions, we have beliefs, things we hold to be true and dear.
Speaker 1:And a bias is a belief that maybe is less grounded or founded, or maybe less known. Often a bias is there to protect us right. We tend to gravitate toward comfort zones in our world. We have the restaurants we go to, the clothing we like. We are creatures of comfort and a bias is a way to find ourselves and steer ourselves into that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, into a tribe where we feel safe.
Speaker 1:We do carry a bias, and it can be. I don't want to learn another language or a culture, or just someone else's way. That's good.
Speaker 2:So number four is going to feel very similar, but I think it gets a little bit more specific. I would say about the actual topic, not the person that you're listening to. But number four is be aware of your own resistance. So this would be a lot more of an awareness to your body, Like what topic do I not really want to talk about? Or what did they just say that actually activated me into either a shutdown, into an anger? What are your resistances?
Speaker 1:as you're talking Well and I think one that we have to just name is care factor, Like I just think a lot of times we get in a conversation or we get with someone and we kind of want to have a fun upbeat, somewhat dopamine filled maybe it's going to be about sports or what I've heard some people saying lately the tea and so then someone gets a little bit more serious and you can just see it on people's face. I don't want to be serious, and so you feel a lot of resistance, you and I recently kind of. What spurred this a little bit was we were trying to press in with our kids around a hot topic, but it's almost like they think we're arguing or like if it's not settled right away and there's a back and forth.
Speaker 1:Something's wrong.
Speaker 2:Right, that was what I was noticing, and you made the comment. It's hard work to be deep thinkers and I think they wanted to just get to a quick solution. It's almost like we can feel like we're failing.
Speaker 1:You know, when we're not settled on, something Like this is wrong. That's kind of the sound bite culture, and so to listen to somebody and they're pondering or they're meandering, I think we can get this deep sense of frustration inside.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think this one being aware of your own resistance would definitely point back to our episode on intensifying the bind, and we usually want to pull people out and just rescue and move on. I think that would be kind of paying attention to your own discomfort of just sitting in it with that person. Okay, so number five is a lot more simple. We may not have a lot to say about it, but it's simply don't interrupt. Now we kind of mentioned that when we talked about being curious, but I will say this is a funny little tip I have to share. Oftentimes in a conversation, as I'm listening, I'll have a thought that I want to share, like oh, an insight, maybe something that they said that refers back to something else that they've experienced, or you know, I'm trying to be an active listener, but to interrupt would stop their flow and I want them to be able to have their flow. So I will cross my fingers out of sight and I will tell myself that crossed finger is go back to the thing they said about their aunt.
Speaker 1:That's so funny. I do the same thing Really I do, and I agree with the interruption. I think. Well, I don't think we've named it. I don't honestly know the rest of your list yet, but active listening does mean, you know, clarifying questions, and that can often feel like an interruption. And to your point about crossing your fingers, I've actually thought hmm, like, I'm okay, I can keep listening, cross my fingers and then circle back to this later.
Speaker 2:Yes, it works Okay. Number six listen to understand, not to reply. So listen to understand, that's the goal to understand, versus you reply.
Speaker 1:So we're focusing on the meaning of their words instead of planning our next words. Yeah, can I listen, not formulate anything. Let the words roll over me, trusting that they're making sense. I'm catching the drift, I'm understanding, I'm seeing the person and at some point, if there is a need, I can take the time to formulate a response, rather than think I better be formulating the response as we go.
Speaker 2:That's really good. So I think I'm going to throw in one of our favorite lines that we heard when we were being trained to be in youth ministry, and that was the three sigh rule. I think we've mentioned it on here before, but basically, instead of planning our reply, we wait for the person to stop talking and sigh Like they've just kind of finished what they said, but they're not done. They want to keep talking. So then they go again, they say a little bit more and it's maybe a little bit more emphatic, like they're getting their stride, and then they sigh again and you're tempted to go okay, I'm ready for the response, but you wait one more, and it's the three sigh rule. And by the end of the third sci, the joke was they've probably solved their own problems, but they just needed your presence to hold space for them. They had the answers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I would say, of all the things we've said, that if you want a rule, that one is the best. But the implication, the setting, would be a person needing to share, like I need to talk to you, right? That's different. That's one form of communication where someone is coming to you almost as a counselor, like a friend, a mentor, a trusted partner. That is one of the times where I do think the three side rule works.
Speaker 1:How I think it interacts with what we just said is, again, often we're formulating a response and there are multiple reasons. One might be oh, this person's asked to meet with me and I better be sharp when they just stopped, I better now insert my wisdom. But there are other conversations that come up, kind of ad hoc, where you're in kind of philosophical conversation. Those are the ones where I think we're trying to formulate almost like a mini argument, like I better have a comeback and, of course, part of listening. By the way, we might as well say it is an arguing, like when we're in an argument and you know things are getting heated. I mean, this is when listening is the most important.
Speaker 2:That's a good transition to this next one, because there will be times in a conversation that we don't want to just be listening. We may disagree and the other person may want to hear our wisdom or advice. It's when to do that and how to do that, and so our number seven is invite the spirit to be your counselor and security, as you are, in this conversation.
Speaker 1:What you're saying there is, we're asking the spirit to remind us of our adoption that you know. Romans 8, the spirit says to my spirit you are a sign, you are an heir. It's like we need to be reminded because of shame, because of our flesh, because of all the ways our protectors are trying to get activated, Like if I feel heated and I feel myself wanting to, maybe, in that moment, just a micro prayer or a quick arrow prayer of spirit help me stay calm, Help me trust you're with me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I think for me, the reason I wrote that as one that's really important is in the midst of being a good listener, you feel like you're being the good counselor, and yet we always need someone that sees us. You know, I think that's why we never outgrow wanting, parenting, mothering, fathering, because we want someone that looks at us and says I see you, I hear you, I'm proud of you.
Speaker 1:I think what I hear you saying too is when I feel my blood pressure rise or when I feel the urge, come when I feel the need, and then yet somehow have the ability to say wait a minute, you know, help me to stay calm, breathe trust.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right, number eight and this is kind of two part, but it sticks together Ask clarifying questions you actually mentioned that earlier and reflect back what you heard. So you're maybe unsure of what the person's saying. Instead of just skipping over it and assuming what they're meaning, maybe gently ask for more details or kind of say hey, let me paraphrase this and see if this feels right. This is what I'm hearing. Is this what you're saying?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Seven Habits famously says to seek first to understand before being understood. And I think, just as a very popular counseling tool, the idea of reflecting back. You know, when I was in seminary we had to write a paper probably one of my harder classes and we had to pick a theological position we disagreed with, but the professor went on a pretty good tirade on do not engage in polemics, which I had never heard that word at the time Polemics, I've never heard that.
Speaker 1:Don't seek argument. And what he went on to say that was so helpful was if you're going to interact with, say, another view of any kind, find the best like, find the voice of that group. They would all say, yes, that's our guy or that's our woman, that's our voice, and then engage that voice. And the point of that is to reflect back is a sort of a micro version of that. I'm saying back the best of what I just heard you say. In other words, I'm not going to wait for that one misstep to argue against you. You know people do that in arguments all the time.
Speaker 1:I'm actually going to hear the totality with my clarifying questions, and then I'm going to reflect back to you what I heard and give you the opportunity to acknowledge yes or no and get that all clarified before I then seek to make my side understood.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's really good. Okay, Number nine pay attention to nonverbal cues. So, as you're listening to someone, notice their tone of voice, maybe their body language, or maybe their voice cracks. Is that a sadness you? You know they quickly covered up, or you know what are the emotions behind their words. Can you pay attention to maybe something they're saying nonverbally that you could gently ask about? Why are you laughing?
Speaker 1:That's all I do.
Speaker 2:Ryan might miss exactly what you say to him, but he'll know what your body's expressing.
Speaker 1:I mean, first of all, we've all heard like nonverbal communication is like what? 90%. Yeah, I think what I'm hearing you say, though that's tell me if this sounds right, though, is there's a lot of that that goes on under the radar, like it's happening, but we're not making it explicit for ourselves. So maybe my body's reacting to the crack in your voice or the flush on your neck or the smirk Like maybe those things are coming into my subconscious. I think what I hear you saying is like note them be aware of them, pay attention to those to understand more fully the words you're saying.
Speaker 1:Is that kind of?
Speaker 2:Well it's. It's an order to be remember. This is all about being a better listener. This person's sharing a story and they got really animated and kind of up in their upper numbers in this one particular part they were telling and then they kind of calmed down. I would just take note why did they kind of race through that part of their story? And this particularly could be about being in a story group together. Can we pay attention to how the story is being told more than what is the story being told Like? How are they even treating the story? Are they dismissing certain parts? Are they slowing down and almost like freezing time at a certain part of their story? Those things usually are cues, to just even be curious, like I wondered. I noticed you got really slow when you started talking about your brother. Is there anything that was going on in your mind when you start talking about your brother? Is there anything that was going?
Speaker 1:on in your mind when you said his name. Yeah, that's really, really good, and I just think we should seek to be experts at noticing tears. I mean, my counselor is, I would say, phenomenal at seeing through our Zoom call micro-expression, and she'll name it Like what was that? And I'm like what do you mean? And we have a quick conversation about, um, she's picking up on things that I'm not even aware of and that's what I hear you saying. It's it helps me as I'm trying to, as I'm trying to be understood. You're listening well, and naming what I might be doing, you know, in a very careful, kind way, might actually bring me out that, oh, I'm being'm being seen, or, even more curious, like what did I do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so good.
Speaker 1:You had like a really interesting furrowed brow when you said your mom's name.
Speaker 2:Or you start twisting your hair very nervously.
Speaker 1:Why are you holding your neck?
Speaker 2:Okay, so I think earlier in the list you did like a, b.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there were two sides.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I have one for this one. So I've had a situation where a friend will ask me some really good questions and I love it. She's asking me and then I'll answer, and then it's like another question and then more, and her questions are very introspective. But I have noticed that I want to then engage her, I want I'm all done, like I feel like that's all I wanted to share in that particular topic. And so I then began to ask her well, tell me about you and how's it been. And she wants to go right back to me. Maybe it's a deflection, she doesn't realize, but I think I was sending cues of I think I'm all done talking about this. So I think, as to be a good listener and you and I have even noticed this when we get to know someone brand new, we'll rapid fire questions about who they are and what they do, and it can feel interrogating after about five I think this is along the lines of attunement right.
Speaker 1:When a mother attunes to their child, she knows when to pick up and when the child wants to be put down.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And it's for the child's care, and so we're listening for the other person, not for us. And going back to the interrogation, I think you and I are so inquisitive. We're kind of just wanting information and we've grown in that area. But to your point, about this other person as well, yeah, like, okay, I want to be a good listener, but I also don't want to like force people into places they're not willing or ready to go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the picking up on nonverbal cues is also picking up on when the person you're listening to feels like they're all done talking about that and you can now gradually move into something else, that you don't have to prove that you're a really good listener by keeping it going and asking more, and it's interesting because the example you gave, and really those examples that we just both gave, they include our speaking like asking more, asking more, and so that's again under the concept of active listening, right.
Speaker 1:But it is interesting because everything is bottled up in loving the other person well, out of a position of being safe, who you are. All 10 points follow from that, and I think that would also include, of course, noticing when the person seems not ready to go farther.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:And again, a lot of these overlap, because what you're paying attention to is shame. When a person starts to close up a little bit, that's their let's say their nonverbal cue that they're done. Or even if they give a verbal cue, I don't really want to talk about it. We can feel shame, like oh my gosh, I'm being shut down. Was I too much or was I bugging them? And all sorts of things can happen. We can just get clumsy, we can keep pressing in, we could close off and look offended.
Speaker 2:So again, just being aware of these things, so, once again, you don't even know my list, but that was a great transition into number 10. So, number 10, you want to offer gratitude and empathy. Thank you for sharing that with me. I I really feel the way you have felt. Maybe you end the conversation with thanking them for sharing. Maybe you end with Lord, hear our prayer. I'll be praying for you, but be very, very careful, if you do want to encourage them with scripture, that it's done in such a way that you think they would receive it well and it's heartfelt. So offer empathy, not a band-aid Bible verse.
Speaker 1:I'm thinking a lot of times with my clients, but I do like to bring Scripture to bear. But I think maybe what I hear you saying is we need to earn the right in the conversation to bring up and interact with something of Scripture. So what I hear you saying is don't use the Bible verse to again. It's going back to our last point. For me, like I feel better if I'll tell you.
Speaker 2:Romans 8, 28.
Speaker 1:I'll feel better if I quote that verse, but if I think you need because I know you are a Christian and I know that this could be helpful I can say you know, when I get to Romans 8, 1 and Paul says there is therefore now no condemnation, that really helps me. You know that actually I'm promoting further conversation, but I think you're saying don't use Bible verses. To kind of sum it up, is that what you're saying?
Speaker 1:Yeah, like to band-aid it nervously, offering maybe advice, and then it can kind of ruin the conversation. And again, if you're talking about a story group, of course if we're in a group setting, one of the number one rules is we don't give advice, we ask questions.
Speaker 1:We don't state things, it gets broken a lot. You know your mother's evil. Or if I were there, I would have blah, blah, blah. Fine, but what we're really working to do in groups is to ask questions. Tell me more about that. Or when you said that I noticed a quiver in your voice, tell me more. And so Bible verses are not that they're teaching platforms, but again, as brothers and sisters in Christ who do engage with each other, I think it's fitting to have that. I think what I hear you saying, when it's hyperbole, maybe a little bit of like don't ever do, do it is don't end up thinking you've closed it off.
Speaker 2:Well, Maybe I should refer to it a little bit like salt. Salt helps food when it's well dispersed or it's perfectly placed, and I've been in plenty of conversations where I felt heard and then a Bible verse was brought up and it felt really healing, it felt seasoned, it felt like tasteful, it was good. But then we've also heard salt on a wound, and so I think we're wanting to just make sure that we trust that our presence and then, as we go away from the conversation, the presence of the Holy Spirit with that person is enough. We don't have to push it. I guess I'm trying to say I think that's perfect.
Speaker 2:So I hope this conversation will help all of us to create spaces in our world where people feel heard and seen and that little by little, our world becomes less polarized and more kind and curious and we can care for each other, even as we may stand on different sides of issues.
Speaker 1:Some things that have been said that you brought up, emily, that I think I want to weave together into one thought the sacredness of conversation. And I say that because often we feel like we're being interrupted in our lives or we feel like let's get through this discussion whatever. Even if we're at an intended meeting with someone. Often it's like how soon can we get to the next thought or whatever.
Speaker 1:There's a sacredness to a conversation and then you named being unhurried and I think again that's a picture of like oh, we knew the value. If there was an actual sense of value in every conversation that we had, we could see a number, we would lean in more. In other words, I think what often can feel like they're unvaluable, like just get through these conversations, have that quick call, move on to that. These are the places relationships are built or broken, and listening actively and with care is one of the most important things we can do, I think, in seeking the healing of others and developing friendships.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think we often talk about things that are dehumanizing. That's the most dehumanizing thing, you know, and I don't know how else to say it, but listening to someone is the most humanizing.
Speaker 1:You could say they disintegrate and listening integrates.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:You didn't say that. But listening well brings integration. It helps the other person feel felt, stay calm in the window of tolerance, make connections they would not otherwise make. We're facilitating that just by being there, caring, empathetic, looking at them.
Speaker 2:As Story Matters Coaching, we firmly believe that seemingly disjointed aspects of our present life are rooted in your personal story and the narrative of the gospel. We'd love to help you explore your story by doing individual or group work with us. Storymatterscoachingcom or Story Matters Initiative on social media can point you to us.