Story Matters Podcast
In the Story Matters Podcast, Hosts Ryan and Emily Baker discuss the intersection between theology and psychology helping listeners to better grasp how their particular stories have shaped them.
Story Matters Podcast
28. The Shame Grandiosity Cycle
Shame is not just one of many emotions we stumble into but rather the alienation we feel from God from conception that persists even after becoming a Christian. We explore the shame grandiosity cycle, where we attempt to cover our shame through performance that inevitably leads to falling and confirming our original self-contempt. What's particularly insidious about this cycle is that our seemingly positive goals—losing weight, achieving academically, building a successful career, being an excellent parent—might actually be unconscious attempts to cover shame we haven't even named.
• Shame is slippery and difficult to define because none of us have ever lived in a world without it
• The "stilts" analogy describes how we attempt to cover shame through performance
• Grandiosity refers to strategies that promise to cover shame but ultimately cannot deliver
• Our positive goals and aspirations often mask underlying shame we haven't named
• Romans 6-8 contrasts the shame-based system with the freedom found in Christ
• The constant feeling of indebtedness keeps us trapped in the shame cycle
• Breaking free requires identifying where our shame originates, not just trying harder
• True healing comes through stepping off the stilts and walking on solid ground
We invite you to reflect on where you feel like a debtor – to people, society, yourself, or God – and rest in the truth that Jesus has paid all your debt. You're invited to live as an heir who has been given all the riches of Christ rather than someone constantly trying to earn your worth.
Welcome to the Story Matters Podcast. I'm Ryan Baker.
Speaker 2:And I'm Emily Baker.
Speaker 1:We believe people grow and heal through understanding how our stories are rooted in God's redemptive story.
Speaker 2:We hope our conversations encourage you to engage your story and the world around you with a new lens.
Speaker 1:We're glad you're here. In today's episode we are going to continue our discussion on the topic of shame. We did start that last time in episode one, really just trying to seek out a definition of what is shame. Where does it stem from? And what we're saying and building on is that shame is not one of many things out there that we could possibly stumble into, but rather, in the biblical use of the word, shame is the alienation we feel from God from conception, and that even when you've become a Christian and shame should be removed it's in our bodies, it's something that is still present in the form of our flesh and it's the silent killer. Maybe it's this passive, aggressive force that goes unseen so often. But today we're going to talk about the shame grandiosity cycle.
Speaker 2:I love the way you said from conception, because we went back to the Garden of Eden last episode because none of us living on the earth now have ever experienced any moment of life that is unashamed. So we're all trying to figure out what would that if we don't know what shame is? Sometimes people, when they're learning about things, let's learn what the opposite is. And we don't really know, like we. Way back at episode two from our podcast season one, we asked our daughter what do you think is the opposite of shame? And she said delight. We kind of played off of that if you're delighted in.
Speaker 2:And what we're finding is that shame is very slippery and difficult to define because none of us have ever lived in a world without shame, and so we're trying our hardest to go back to what was it like before shame entered? Where did it actually come in? And then today, as we unpack this word that Ryan just said grandiosity, we're going to do another difficult task of trying to grab a hold of the ways we cover our shame, because as tricky as it is to pinpoint shame, it's just as tricky to pinpoint the ways that we're covering, and I don't know if you guys ever had those that, that toy as a kid that you'd hold in both hands, that would slide through your hand and then you'd grab it at the bottom and slide and it was like this, like weird rubbery kind of, and the idea was that it was just constantly slipping and you had to keep your hand moving below it to catch it and move it below. I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:That's to me how shame feels. It's like you're constantly trying to stay with it. Like you mentioned, kurt Thompson, who's written tons of great material on shame, still says it hides. It keeps slipping, it keeps slipping and if you don't keep grabbing at it it's just going to run its course. And so we're attempting to keep grabbing at what is shame, what is the covering? What is shame? What is the covering? Like this right hand, left hand, right hand, left hand.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that the reason this episode is important is I think a lot of us may get to the place where we're like, fine, I get it, I have shame. What now? That's the big question. I think what we're trying to do and what I'll just say light bulb that came on for me was, emily, when you pointed me back, I had read the book, but I struggled through it the first time Alice Miller's the Drama of the Gifted Child and you had noticed something that seemed to apply to a more of the elder brother type personality by the people who perform well. So when I read it, that wasn't something that hit me initially, but then you said maybe this applies to you. So you want to just share briefly the thoughts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we were both of us, at different times of our journey through NFTC training, were tasked with reading Alice Miller and her book called the Drama of the Gifted Child. At one point she said there are types of people that live their lives constantly up on stilts of performance, trying to do something quite dramatic and beautiful, but they can't sustain it so they fall, and their fall to the degree they were up there on those high stilts is pretty intense, where they are constantly getting back up and re-performing and trying to prove themselves again. And not only is that something that I think she didn't use the word cycle, but it did feel very cyclical and they get very envious and even angry at people that are just simply walking on their two feet on the ground. And so I think in that particular conversation you were saying that you found yourself maybe in a cycle of wanting to do something really great and then falling, and so I brought that up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think, just to define grandiose, I think most of us know the general meaning of the word.
Speaker 1:Typically it's it holds this idea of you're like I want to be Superman, right, something crazy like impossible.
Speaker 1:But the way we're using it here is it's grandiose because it will not do what it promises.
Speaker 1:So in that sense it overlaps well with pride.
Speaker 1:In other words, the fig leaves were not going to do the job, but it was an attempt they did make, and what we're getting at then is so often the things we pursue and, let me say, the things that seem like maybe the good things in our lives, are often our attempt to cover the shame we haven't even named and what I've begun to notice and it's a little vulnerable to bring these things up, but I can find myself like murmuring a plan in the morning, like almost thinking to myself my new strategy, and these strategies can revolve around health, fitness, time management, whatever they are. I find that often I'm like feeling this sort of upbeat plan forming in my mind, and what I've become aware of is what I haven't named in. Those moments are often used to not name, and now I'm trying to learn to do is pause, pay attention to any goal, any new plan, any new thing that kind of gets you excited. Not that it's wrong, we're not. That's the trouble. Usually these are often really great things maybe.
Speaker 1:But rather what's the shame. Their job is to cover what's the shame, and that's not super easy.
Speaker 2:You can pretty that's actually really hard and I think that's why we've held off on this particular conversation, because it is really hard to, and especially when we're in the realm of theory, like we're in a conversation right now, but everybody listening to this is going to be just in the mindset of theory. It's not practical. So this comes up a lot. I think you and I have both mentioned that we will take people through this type of cycle analysis in their story that they're unpacking with us. That's hands-on, easier to grab, but you're right, it's hard to find the shame that I'm trying to cover with this new idea.
Speaker 1:And not only is it hard to find, it can feel like death, because the promise of the new thing feels so life-giving that we almost want to not look.
Speaker 1:And one of the things I'll say often is we're kicking the proverbial can down the road. Because if we were super honest, taking truth serum, we know this isn't going to work. I'm willing to kick that can down the road for the pleasure it will bring, for the moment, or the numbing, and with grandiosity. For example, I think a very pretty prevalent topic would be weight loss. So if someone looks in the mirror and thinks you know what, I'm going to lose 20 pounds or whatever, that's fine. We're not critiquing that. But often that can be a sense of this will really solve some things. And what we rarely name is that we're not just wishing to lose a little weight. We'll say they always want to feel better, I want to fit in that dress or that, those pants or whatever. But if we really pause, it's because on one level we feel disgusting and then if you really start to play with it a little bit more, it's that you wonder if people find you that way.
Speaker 1:And that really is where shame comes down to. Is shame? Its job is to keep us relevant in the tribe, unabandoned, not cast out, and anything that we can put into play that will aid in our staying part of whatever the tribe is, the collective sense of belonging, we'll use it and it'll be very attractive and appealing to us. Even though at the tribe is the collective sense of belonging, we'll use it and it'll be very attractive and appealing to us, even though, at the same time, say we know that won't ultimately make us happy or it won't ultimately take away the pain. Another way we could say it is it won't ultimately take away the threat that shame's always whispering.
Speaker 1:This will work for a little bit, and we talked about, I think, the ACEs study in a previous episode, where the original patients of the doctor would lose some weight but then they would leave and it was found out that there was trauma underlying their weight gain and it was clear that the removal of the weight wasn't resolving the problem. And so that's what we're getting at. Is the grandiosity, is it's like a catch because on one hand it won't do it but on the other hand, to not move in the direction of whatever that is, that performance, that goal, that thing feels like we're going to be just utterly cast away. So we do something.
Speaker 2:And that do something I would say is a cycle that we're naming. We're calling this the grandiosity shame cycle. It's really just a shame cycle, but I think the idea that you and I are wanting to unpack is whether you're climbing up on stilts because you know you can, or hey, that's the fun of the game. I know I'll fall or I'm going to set these goals, the kicking the can down the road that you're saying. I don't really know any other way to go at my shame. This is what I've always known I'm going to get good grades or I'm going to perform in this way. You've really helped me. We've talked about this so much is looking at some portions of scripture that actually describe that. That cycle is a way to prove to everyone, and myself and God, that I'm not flawed. But we can't win a flesh covering shame cycle. Can we just talk about getting out of that cycle? I think that's actually like one of the theses of our work is get out of that cycle and get into the gospel.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I want to say something about the stilts. One thing I love about the stilts analogy as you're unpacking that just again for the listeners the stilts idea, I think, is it's working. I tend to live a life of success. Look at me. And then one thing I remember you sharing and I did go back to check it out is there's also some envy on the stilts of the people who don't need them. They're below me but, man, they look free, they're just walking around. But I just want to say something about the stilts that I've noticed. We're talking now about the cycle. There's shame that you usually don't notice. There's the attempt at grandiosity, but when I see people on them, they need to keep moving.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, that's, yeah, that's the key and so it's if I stop, I'll fall. So I'll keep moving, and the people I know that really often are successful and willing to name shame they'll say that. They'll say it's the fear that if I stop I'll lose what I've gained.
Speaker 2:If I slow down, I'll start to feel, yeah, that's actually a great point to make, because this is all Alice Miller's analogy that those people are actually envious of people that are on the ground just walking and I think we in our culture will say she's very grounded or he's a very grounded person. That's a good thing, because you can get somewhere, you can actually walk. Stilts is not the way to go, but somehow the gifted child because this whole book is the drama of the gifted child the gifted child has somehow come to believe they have to get places by being up on the stilts, but the fall is going to be what keeps them going, that's the shame.
Speaker 2:And, like you said, some people are successful, but they still know at any moment I could fall. Take us back to, if we were to use her analogy, stilt walking and feet on the ground walking. We're saying the stilt walking is the grandiosity cycle of covering your shame, trying to be something, trying to prove yourself. But take us to the grounded person in Scripture.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think this is where it gets. It's both very complex and yet super essential. But much of the core of what the Apostle Paul is teaching in his letters is that there are basically two systems at play. One is he'll use a phrase elemental spirits, elemental principles but he also will use the word law, referring to the law of sin and death. He says Gentiles have a law unto themselves, in other words, whatever the community is using the world around you for evaluation.
Speaker 1:And it's funny, when you talk about legalism, a lot of people are like yeah, I'm not a legalist, I don't think God loves me because of what I do. Fine, but you do think people love you because of what you do, and that's where you find your value. I don't actually think. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think the Pharisees were all that concerned with what God thought of them. I think they were definitely concerned with what the people thought of them. So even religious legalism is an attempt, I think, to fit in to your world. And, if you want an example or proof, if you have joined a community at some point in your life that emphasized quiet times and you developed the ability to have a 30 minute daily quiet time and you were super proud, only to find out there was another community that does an hour. All of a sudden you feel less. And so the point isn't I mean, I was with God and I was learning principle it's am I enough, am I achieving?
Speaker 1:And so what we're getting at is measuring, evaluation, and you see this, I think it's a lot of places, but right off the bat, in Romans 8, paul has raised the problem in Romans 7 of living without the gospel. And that is when the law, that is the law of God, not the law of sin and death, when the actual law, meaning the character of God, is on display. We will never measure up. And so we'll be in this cycle of I want to do, but I don't right. And then he says who will rescue me? So now it's relational and it's Jesus Christ.
Speaker 1:That's how he ends chapter 7. And he says there is therefore now no condemnation. So we see, right there he's saying in Christ there is no contempt, condemning or shame whatever word you're wanting to use there because the law that measures you has been put away. Now that's legally true for the Christian, but what happens is, functionally, we almost always drift back into law keeping, we drift back into the shame-based model. So what he's talking about is living by the spirit, is to be living as if you are he says it a little bit later debt-free. And he says so, we are debtors, but not to the flesh and the thought there, and you and I talked about this a little bit this morning is debt is not just about like it's a negative word we use, but it's an evaluation like what do you owe?
Speaker 1:And if you have debt and you pay every month your let's say minimum, you start all over, right, every month it starts all over. Maybe you're just paying the interest off, and that really is what we have in the world of shame. That's the language of the fallen world. It's the elemental spirit. You are essentially what you do and how you measure, and it's interesting because, even with debt I know listeners, if you are like me you often want a good credit score. I want to have a good credit score. It's a point of pride, right? It means I'm somebody. Look what I've done. I've done it right, I'm on my stilts, right. We have measuring processes, and so what I'm getting at here, then, is shame is at the core of so much, and what's really can be frightening or freeing is often shame is at the core of even the places that you and I might think are the good spots, the performances, the well-dones. Often those were things done to cover that feeling of shame or to keep from feeling like maybe we're not enough.
Speaker 2:You're describing a whole system of being in debt, Like when you said each month you're just starting over the lose-lose.
Speaker 1:You're describing by the way, when you brought that toy, that's exactly kind of what I thought you were doing.
Speaker 2:It was like you grab it, it just slides through your hands and your next hand has to go below it and slide it. That is the constant indebted. It's going to keep moving. You got to keep up with it. You can't win this game.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the game of grandiosity, and the reason we're using that word is, by definition, it's unachievable and, in a weird way, we know it when we select it.
Speaker 2:So, going back to the stupid toy that, I don't even know why I brought it up, but it just came to my mind and if you have no idea what I'm talking about, I think it was called like the snake. Grandiosity feels a little bit different than just covering, because covering could work, but grandiosity, you already get the sense that you're set up for failure. It's the stilts. You're going to fall at some point. It can't last forever. And I think that's the cycle. We're saying don't even be in it. So like you can play this game with this silly sliding toy. As long as you're playing it, you may be like, look, I'm doing it. Are you going to do that the rest of your life? No, at some point it's going to drop or you're going to have to stop. And we're saying, like success has an expiration date if it's through that cycle.
Speaker 1:And an added complexity. But critically important is grandiosity is always alone. So that's why I dovetails with pride. It's an attempt on my own. The relationship with our Heavenly Father has been broken. That's the fall. Adam and Eve and then the rest of us in line need to figure out ways to fit. We talk about protectors, we talk about all sorts of things. Those are all types of grandiosity. It's I'm going to do this strategy in these circumstances, to stay in this tribe so I don't have to feel myself as I really am Now.
Speaker 1:After grandiosity is the inevitable collapse Like it will end when we talked about stilts, you keep moving, so you don't maybe feel it as much, but it's the sense that I have to keep moving. Or there is an actual collapse, like, for example we've talked about. A protector can become a persecutor. The part of me that might be driven to survive, to do well, can end up becoming the workaholic things like that. When there is a collapse, sometimes the stilt person, the person who's performing, will have a secret collapse.
Speaker 1:A lot of times the elder brothers and that refers back to Luke 15, the prodigal son. I think Keller has done a really good job of unpacking that. We all have those patterns older brother, younger brother and sometimes we can shift back and forth on the day. But when we're in the phase of being the elder brother, if that's our identity day, but when we're in the phase of being the elder brother, if that's our identity, often those are the people with secret, hidden sin patterns and living almost your own private torment of collapse. But people don't see it. But either way, whether your collapse is public or private, whether it's big or little, what it leads to is a confirming of the original self-contempt. I knew it. See, I'm a fraud, like it's true. I am disgusting.
Speaker 2:I am unlovable.
Speaker 1:And, by the way, I don't know if we can go into it here, but there's and I verified this with people, clients Often when you get to that failure, there can be a sense of warmth in it which really is dark, like, almost like I'm home, and again the idea there is, if you live by shame, being exposed, feels like home, feels like the truth, and our goal would be, and what Christ does is, he gives us our true home, our true identity, and our hope is to help for our own walk with the Lord. But for our clients to begin to name where did grandiosity show up and what was the shame it was covering? So, going back to Romans 8, there's this sense of indebtedness to the flesh, that is, to this life I owe, like I need to do this, to stay up, I need to have this or that or this circumstance, and as we sit here, we're in Romans 8, conceptually. Really, we're always you and I like talking about Romans 6, 7, and 8.
Speaker 2:Yeah, romans 6 is my go-to when I've got, when I need these reminders of the thing you're saying about indebtedness, that. Romans 8, that's kind of his like climax of the difference of the law of sin and death and the spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Those are the two systems. So if you go back a couple chapters, I think in Romans 6, he really nails that we don't have to be in that cycle anymore. That's the freedom in Christ is we are offered a whole different operating system. So here's where I think we can go astray in our Christian attempts at helping people is if we stay in the cycle of do good and feel good, and even feel good about yourself and get back to where you should be. Then you're good, like, yeah, my daughter's doing well and our marriage is doing good.
Speaker 2:That can actually be in the shame cycle without you realizing it. Just do better on your stilts. Let me help you get better on your stilts. When Romans 6 is saying stop, you are free to go, get on your feet, walk on the ground. You are in union with Christ who has taken care of that whole system. You don't have to like when you feel the shame. Here's your reminder. That's your old self. It was crucified in Christ. That's the Romans 6 mantra, even the stuff he says like in verse 21,. But what fruit you were getting at that time? Like whatever you were getting from those stilts, it's going to lead you to shame, like you were seeking things to make you feel better. What's an?
Speaker 1:example of that, just as you think about our modern era.
Speaker 2:Probably good grades, or that would be like a younger version, or I want my child to get good grades. Or let's put myself back into the era of being a young mom who I need to get everybody fed at certain times and bedtime routine and orderliness and their behavior, and we didn't have too much technology. If I went to bed that night thinking, okay, I did good, they all behaved, I fed them three times, I feel good about myself. I'm in the evaluation cycle. I'm not thinking neither how I did nor how I didn't do has any value. Only faith working itself through love. I'm not thinking that way. I'm thinking did I do well? I did good? Okay, I'm going to go to bed with peace, but we're indebted to our own cycle of covering. That's kind of what we're saying. Get out of that cycle.
Speaker 1:Romans 6 pops for me at the very beginning, when he inserts, based on chapter 5, a question that he imagines, that I think all of us ask, and that is should I go on sinning?
Speaker 2:that grace may abound.
Speaker 1:In other words, if I give those things up, I'm going to fail, I'm going to take a nap, I'm going to quit my job. And Paul's saying by no means I'm going to take a nap, I'm going to quit my job. And Paul's saying by no means. What he's teaching is the human spirit. The way you are designed is that when law and shame are removed, even for a brief moment, the power of who you are in Christ comes out. So the fruit of the spirit, for example, isn't the spirit just plopping in some joy and plopping down some love. It's freeing you from what's keeping those things from happening, because shame steals all of it Our sense of being evaluated. If you want proof, go out onto a putting green, put the ball two and a half feet away and stroke it five times and see how many times you'll make it. Probably four, I don't care how good you are.
Speaker 1:Step into the final hole of, say, the US Open, with hundreds of thousands of people watching. You're going to struggle. It's the same motion. Let's call it the same putt. The same ball, the same putter. It's the sense of evaluation. Your brain is on a hyper arousal. There's so much on the line. If I miss this disaster and headlines and all of that makes the actual performance miserable and difficult, and so that's how we live our lives. If we're living in the world of shame, everything we do has some form of measurement. We're tired, we're exhausted, we're unhappy. I think what we're trying to get at is grandiosity is not the answer, because its design is to set us up for the crash, which is what we're addicted to. We're addicted to the failure that comes.
Speaker 2:Which that's a huge statement. You and I both have read Jay Stringer's book, and he does a great job unpacking that. I don't know if we have time to dive into that right this second.
Speaker 1:Just for clarification a few moments ago, I made the statement that if we live by shame, then being exposed as shameful actually feels like the truth or like comfort. And so the point is, if we secretly think we are indebted to the flesh, that is, we have to do something that works for righteousness. And again, here's the rub. Theologically, I think probably every listener would be like I don't think that. I know that I'm justified by faith. But here's the problem.
Speaker 1:If that's only how you relate to God in your mind, but with people it's still by law, then you're really relating to God by law. You've just replaced God with people Like God loves me, but my goodness, my tribe, whatever that is, the evaluators of my brain, the people who I imagine are measuring the society around me if that's whom dictates my mood and my goals and my processes, that's my God. And so, in a way, so many people are like oh, I'm not works righteous, well, okay, but we're shame driven. And, quite frankly, no matter who you are, this side of heaven, we're going to always have parts of us that are still driven by shame. Even if we're growing in righteousness, we're going to still need to find these places where parts are still reliant on shame.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I want to even be careful that you pointing out that truth that we often still live in our communities out of a works righteousness like the way you just said. It is so true, but it can even sound shaming. Stop it, like you're supposed to see everyone else like the way God sees you. You know, like it would be stupid for me to say to my middle schooler just go into that seventh grade hallway and just know that Jesus loves you and it doesn't matter, that does not compute, even for us as adults. We're like. It does matter and I think Jesus has compassion and kindness and empathy towards that. Knowing our bodies were born into a fallen world where, if our body and brain are screaming at us you're not safe, they're going to kick you out, you're going to be hated, it's going to be very difficult to not feel shame.
Speaker 1:And going back to the middle schooler, because that is a conundrum. You really can't tell anybody, really a child, to not care what people think about them. But we've talked about this a lot here and I think it's pretty much out there as far as attachment theory and things, that if the child is attuned to in our home and we've provided good containment and repair and they have a sense of value for who they are and not what they do, then even though they will, like all of us, have arenas where we're drawn to the shame cycle, places where it's heightened right, the foundation hopefully prayerfully is there to give a much better chance of naming that or not being completely derailed by it.
Speaker 2:So let me recap We've got on one side the stilts, the performance, the covering of our shame by doing big good things in our community, in our lives, good grades, good marriage, whatever we want to say, makes us feel like we're good people. That's a system. And in Romans he's saying get out of that system and believe we are under God's grace. The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free. We're debt free, we're not on stilts, we don't have the fear of falling. That's the goal.
Speaker 2:So now we don't have to live out of the operating system of fig leaves, shame covering grandiosity. So you have two different operating systems. One is flesh, one is spirit. Right, I mean, that's kind of what we're saying. Here's the problem Our whole world that we live in and this is where I think there's a kindness of God that he knows this about our situation and he's lived in it Our world operates under an evaluation. There's grades, there's credit scores, there's all kinds of ways of measuring up. How do we live in that world while also believing I'm safe? There's credit scores, there's all kinds of ways of measuring up. How do we live in that world while also believing I'm safe or I'm free?
Speaker 1:Yes, and that's so important, because what shame will do is the way shame will show up is say, okay, so you want to follow this Jesus character and that's great on Sundays, that's great at church, but hey, we're a business, you got to do this, or your appearance, you need to do that, whatever to fit in. We're doubting that God's way is good for us. That's what happens, right, we secretly go, I don't know. And there's a place in Psalm 119 that we recently looked at where the psalmist he'd been saying. It's verses 25 to 32.
Speaker 1:My soul's in the dust A few verses later. My soul is in sorrow, like hurting, but longing to have life according to your word. And so he's battling belief that God's way is good. And in fact, toward the very end of that stanza, he says I will walk in your statutes, I'm committing to your way, to shalom, restored to the way life is designed.
Speaker 1:Let me not be put to shame, in other words, I think, and the reason we brought up Romans 6 a minute ago, one of the reasons was when you start to hear the music of not being under the law of sin and death or shame, but that you are set free when you begin to hear that and it can be a beautiful new song. In your mouth there will be a pretty quick gut punch of oh I hope I'm not put to shame with this, and it's not super clear because shame is so secretive how that'll play out. So what we do is we try to play the double-minded game, where we theologically walk in one area but practically we're going to keep this up because it's better than what the alternative would be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe I'm losing weight for the wrong reason, but I'd rather do that than be made fun of or whatever.
Speaker 2:Okay, I think, based on what you just said, I have a story I want to tell that kind of illustrates the difficulty of naming our driving force. This is a conglomerate, so this is not a particular client. This is not any person that I know, but this is based off a very common theme. I think it would be good for all of us to hear the story and analyze it together. Okay, there's a young woman who has been very successful in school, done very well in high school and college. Social educational goals met. The whole resume is there.
Speaker 2:She goes away further from her family to go to a grad school and within a few months she begins to really spiral into a depression. She's not making friends, she's not doing well in school, her world is crashing down. So her parents take her to a Christian counselor. It's like, hey, something's wrong. This is not normal. Our daughter's not thriving. What happened? And everyone is concerned about how to get her back to that thriving place. Let's figure out what went wrong so she can get her back. Or can we take the approach of what was all of that performance? Are you trying to get her back on her stilts? Let's figure out what went wrong so she can get her back. Can we go back even further into her childhood and we don't want to miss that.
Speaker 2:In this particular girl's story she repeated first grade. Now maybe her parents are such good parents they knew this was going to be better for her and in fact it did set her up for success and she's done great. But she didn't process that in her emotional life, her inner world, made some vows and agreements that if she doesn't do well she's going to lose all of her community. Everyone's going to move on without her. She's going to lose friends, she's going to be put to shame, she's going to be embarrassed. This is like a marking on her life that wasn't really processed.
Speaker 2:So if we could do the work as her story coach and counselor to say what even got you on the track of being the straight A student, the most popular, the student council president, that's not by chance and not everyone does that. So can we go back to are those fig leaves and come to find out? Going away from her family triggered. Where's my audience? She was in debt. If you think about what you brought up earlier in this episode, we are indebted to something. I think this little girl in first grade realized I've got to pay a debt of doing my best so that never happens to me again. That was triggered when she moved farther away into grad school. If I don't succeed, I might lose my community, and so I think there's a lot happening in the story I'm bringing. But, listener, do you hear how we could shame her back into a shame cycle by saying let's just get her back to doing well, if we don't go back into her story and say, but why do you feel like you have to do well?
Speaker 1:Yes, that's a really good case study, because I think what you're saying is the grandiosity was such a long game, using the stilt analogy, that we just assumed that was actually all great Now, using the stilt analogy, that we just assumed that was actually all great Now, I will say it might be common for somebody to come along and go. Is it possible that for you, good grades were an idol? And the challenge there is. Of course, we both believe, you and I, emily, that we have idols of the heart, the Greek word epithymia, this kind of inordinate desire of something. The thing itself could be good.
Speaker 1:But I think where we want to go a little bit further is again, if you just simply say to me, ryan, your desire to do well at school or work or whatever is an idol, I'm just going to need to go figure out, like, how to not worship it or whatever. But what we're trying to do is say what's causing that thing to become grandiose. It becomes grandiose when its burden is too big. In other words, an idol cannot save you. That's what makes it an idol. Good grades, being involved in the youth ministry, whatever those things were in this person's life, won't save her ultimately.
Speaker 1:The problem is. It felt like it was for a season and therefore in that season, to take that away would be super devastating. And that's why what you're saying is, if the only corrective is, hey, keep up success, keep up your grades and everything, get back on in grad school. We can figure this out. Only let's not do it as an idol. But I think what you're getting at is, wait a minute, like where was shame involved in the pursuit of those efforts? And again, we're not throwing out the baby with the bathwater. We're not saying you shouldn't want success, but part of the healing journey is almost like a reboot of maybe. I don't want to walk on stilts anymore when we're looking at change, when we're looking at our healing journey. Most of the time we start with I want to get back to something. There's some bar that I had at one point. There's some level, and the hard part about true healing is often we'll find, oh, like that was not even healthy.
Speaker 2:And I think that's why this case study was really helpful to think, oh, how often do we shame people back into their shame cycle by even saying that's an idol. We want you to do well, do good, but don't make it such a big deal. That's shaming. How in the world is someone supposed to go? Okay, just don't make that an idol. That doesn't help. That shames her back into her cycle. Why did it even become a big deal? Why did that become so important to you? Why is that your identity?
Speaker 2:And we've talked in here before about blessing certain childhood responses that we can't just shame them away. That does not make them go away. So we have to go back to that little first grader and say I can see why you began to be a very hard worker and you became hyper vigilant at your environment and succeeding, so that would never happen to you again. That was devastating and that's the only way you knew to cope was okay, okay, I've got to be an A student, I've got to be everything. But that protector at that first grade level is now in grad school persecuting you because you don't have the bandwidth or the ability to say I don't really like this, or I got a, c, and that's good enough. That protector has to be blessed for that shame cycle to be melted into the grace of God. Right Like we can't just say stop it.
Speaker 1:What I hear you saying is simply naming that something might have been an idol and that she simply needs to believe the truths. We're not suggesting that's not helpful, we're not saying that. But what we're saying is first of all, you really need to find the wounding, and what we would say is the wounding is the shame, it's the place and naming the shame.
Speaker 1:And then the grandiosity. And I want to now speak to those that maybe aren't on stilts. Maybe you're the sibling that watched the other sibling perform. That was certainly my story and I have found there's deep identity markers and issues for me to perform would have led to shame. That's complex, it's hard to unpack fully here. But again, if all I do is move toward grandiosity solutions, hey, I got some good techniques. My mom bought me a set of tapes where there's a will.
Speaker 2:There's an A.
Speaker 1:I'm going to. I think what I have figured out is this, that or the other. If I don't address the shame like where does this come from? What's the threat? And for some people, like the person you've illustrated, the threat would be not performing.
Speaker 1:But there's also, for some people, the threat of performing. There's envy. There's if your parents put you in categories like the movie Encanto, where everybody had to have their space, their power, because the grandma essentially was borderline and so we're all afraid of becoming like Bruno, cast out. And so often in our families of origin you need to go there to find out, okay, to fit in, to survive. I had to do these things, which means shame had a particular look and I will say from my pattern and I don't mind being a fourth right here, the fall, the grandiosity fall, had its own arousal structure. There's almost a pattern of setting the bar so high that I just its own arousal structure. There's almost a pattern of setting the bar so high that I just I knew I was like chasing something that really, to get to it, have probably led to more harm.
Speaker 2:Is that too complex? No, because I think we all get. People love the climb. It's not the destination, it's the hike, like I think you're describing that just even the running after something gave you the sense of purpose, even though you knew I'll never get there. You would never have named that.
Speaker 1:And more than okay I want to come back to to understand what I'm saying. The face and the eyes of your parent are so important. Where did I, where did you listener? Where did we feel seen? And in a healthy setting you're seen because of who you are.
Speaker 1:But if the parent is showing displeasure, and then at other times, pleasure, if it's inconsistent, so it's ambivalent, or if it's avoidant all these things, you're confused about how to fit in and find your place and so, in a sense, shame is coming at you all in particular ways. And it can be surprising to find out that in your family of origin no one wanted you to be successful. That spot was taken. They wanted you to be funny or charming or easygoing, or you were most recognized when you met the needs of others, which is really where Alice Miller is going. So oftentimes a person's role is to fit in and make everyone happy. That's their. So the grandiosity is I am most safe from shame when I'm tending to other people. And again, that person would never use the concept of stilts. They would say, no, I'm not on stilts, but there is a developed pattern. That's a subtle grandiosity.
Speaker 1:So when we use the word grandiosity, it doesn't necessarily mean that the world would go wow, that's a lofty goal. It means that our use of whatever pattern we choose, it's lofty for that thing. It won't do it in the end. I can't serve my mom enough, or I can't meet the needs of others enough to finally feel free.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's really good, as I sat and listened and we're wrapping things up. In the last episode you made this comment that we're using a lot of different language to nuance the same thing. We're drilling home very much the same themes and so if it seems repetitive, it is, but we're trying to identify some very difficult things to identify. But I want to give this charge to you, listener, as we close out this particular episode. These kinds of things need to be processed with someone. You can't probably listen to this episode and go OK, I see that in my childhood and you name it, you see it and then you turn away from it and you now are living in the side of grace.
Speaker 2:Our prayer is that these conversations do bring clarity and they do bring healing, but I think this is just a tool. Can you listen to this episode with a friend or with a spouse and discuss it? Or can you set up an appointment with us and let us have fresh eyes on your story to help you see where are these themes playing out in your life? Go find someone to chew on this with and let them see your story and you see their story, just like we can't see our own face without a mirror. Ryan and I need each other. We both have counselors. We have loved story groups. We want to always encourage you use this podcast as a launching pad, as the place of theory, but go practice it. Take these really difficult, somewhat complex ideas that we're trying to make into simple thoughts and go process them.
Speaker 1:I agree. I also think it's good to have some practices on our own, even though I'm fully in agreement with what you just said. But just to get to this place of like, where might my grandiosity be? That's a very simple starting place, and play around with that, and the way you'll find it is basically pretend it's not, like, take it away and see how you feel exposed, naked, ashamed, and then the work that you're describing, emily, is okay. Now I need to go and try to understand not only the way I would describe that shame in the present, but its origin, and so we're looking for what might have caused that, what might have brought that up. And so those are some practices to just honestly lead us to grieve at times and just to name and be sad. A lot of times clients are like what do I do now? It's like we're doing it, you're naming something, you're grieving it, especially if you're with another person or you can at least share with someone. You can begin to heal and not feel the compulsion to grab the fig leaves of grandiosity.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So our closing invitation to you can you name where you feel like a debtor? Who are you in debt to? Is it a particular person? Is it just the society? Is it to yourself? Is it to God? So can you name where do you still feel like a debtor? Can you reflect on how that actually does fuel your shame, that pushes you into covering and grandiosity, that cycle. And then can you rest in the truth that Jesus has paid all your debt and now, in the Spirit, you're invited to live as a daughter, a son, an heir that is not in debt but actually has been given all the riches of Christ.
Speaker 1:If you would like to learn more about who we are and what we are passionate about, you can find us at storymattersinitiativecom or on Instagram and Facebook. Story Matters Initiative is the umbrella to our coaching practice that we offer to anyone looking for growth and healing.